Ecstatic Awareness #8 -- Faith vs. Beliefs, and Spiritual Power
PowerChat: *** Entered The New Age on 1/17/00 at 07:28 PM ***
RBCF 3000: Good evening, dear friends
RBCF 3000: We'll be starting class in a minute. It will be the 8th session of "Ecstatic Awareness"
Log Count: There were 12 member(s) in The New Age at 07:30 PM
RBCF Heart: Tonight's is the eighth class in the series, on the
RBCF Heart: theme of "How is Faith different from beliefs, and how
RBCF Heart: is it related to Spiritual Power?"
RBCF 3000: Once we get started, we'll be on "informal protocol"
RBCF 3000: which just means you let me finish an idea and then
RBCF 3000: watch for me to open the floor for discussion, ok?
RBCF 3000: Ok, so we can start, we ask that you take greetings
RBCF 3000: and private conversation into IMs, and we have a
RBCF 3000: wowser of a theme tonight!
RBCF 3000: Welcome, everyone. Tonight is our eighth class in
RBCF 3000: Ecstatic Awareness: "How is Faith different from
RBCF 3000: beliefs, and how is it related to Spiritual Power?" Once
RBCF 3000: again, for those who are joining us for the first time,
RBCF 3000: the way we are using the word "ecstatic" here means
RBCF 3000: entering into states of consciousness, accompanied by
RBCF 3000: transformation of being, in which the supernatural
RBCF 3000: and the Miraculous can be witnessed and experienced
RBCF 3000: directly, even including the realms of Divinity.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: Before we begin tonight's lesson, let's hear if any of
RBCF 3000: you are trying some of the exercises we've been
RBCF 3000: discussing. These include stopping the internal
RBCF 3000: dialogue; listening, tasting and feeling on deep levels;
RBCF 3000: dream and trance work; and infinitely prolonged
RBCF 3000: meditation. Go right ahead if you've been trying any
RBCF 3000: of these ...
RochelleDo: meditation is incredible for becoming more awae
RochelleDo: and the stillness we do not normally allow
RBCF 3000: RochelleDo, did you find it awfully tedious when you first
RBCF 3000: started meditation? I sure did
SparrowOvQ: its stops all internal dialogue and hits every level of your being
Saeve88: I cannot shut my mind off
Saeve88: I find it hard to meditate
Saeve88: to shut external off
Saeve88: any advice?
RochelleDo: I would have if I had done it earlier in my life
RochelleDo: I knew now was the time
RochelleDo: it will be ages before it is as special as it
RochelleDo: might be maybe but the stillness i did so require
Raquelwel: 3000 - When I meditate I get so relaxed that I fall asleep?
FlowerJJN: keep saying 'I am slowing Down My Internal Dialogue' Saeve .. it works
Saeve88: I want to get in touch with my guides
Saeve88: and i have ahard time doing it
Saeve88: I have yet for them to get in touch with me
Saeve88: I am struggling with this
SparrowOvQ: or say Saeve 4000 times nothing else
FlowerJJN: they will get in touch with you ..
Selph2000: Sae..instead of stopping it...try stepping out
DECLIGHT: it is not necessary to shut down internal dialogue
Raquelwel: Flower - I have asked them to get in touch with me, but nothing so far
DCizunas: Raquel, did you ever stop to think that this is what your guides think is the best thing...
DCizunas: ...many things are also seen in a dream state
RochelleDo: It is a cumulative thing, meditation...must be
RochelleDo: persevered with
FlowerJJN: No need to ask .... when they think it is ready they will come ..
RBCF 3000: Saeve, I don't even *try* to "shut my mind off" -- that
RBCF 3000: doesn't really work, does it? I do it by going toward an
RBCF 3000: inner focus-- hard to describe, but it emerges.
RochelleDo: just allow, accept
Raquelwel: DC - I wish I could remember anything afterwards tho
DCizunas: Saeve, greetings...greetings all
RochelleDo: its all alright and acceptable
SparrowOvQ: Graz what do you do to turn off ?
DCizunas: Ah Raquel, just put out the thought that you wish to remember...
Saeve88: I find it very frustrating
Saeve88: to try
Saeve88: I teach school all day
Raquelwel: DC - I've done that too
RochelleDo: Saeve, do not have expectations
Saeve88: and I am so wired at night
DCizunas: ...I have also had success asked to be roused from meditation at a certain time
Saeve88: I canot relax
Saeve88: to meditate
RochelleDo: just allow what happens and accept it
Saeve88: i am trying very hard to do it
Saeve88: but nothing is happening
RochelleDo: do not try so hard
RBCF 3000: Saeve, I was taught to do my meditation first thing in the
RBCF 3000: morning, before *everything*!
SparrowOvQ: that the trouble saeve trying
Grazhopprr: meditation tapes i make for myself work better for me than loose gemini mind
FlowerJJN: Saeve .. my mind was always going ... what I told you works .. after a while you will not
Saeve88: and i feel I have gifts to find
FlowerJJN: have to say it ..
SparrowOvQ: Graz thats a good idea
DCizunas: Raquel, just be assured that it will come in time, nothing is easy at first
Selph2000: Saeve..what do you find relaxing?
Saeve88: quiet places
Saeve88: lying down
SEEKNGSTUD: I have no desire to "turn off" my thoughts! <--not a zombie wannabe
Raquelwel: DC - I suspect so, just be patient
RBCF 3000: Anyway, we all have to struggle with these exercises,
RBCF 3000: because they go against our habits. And that is the very
RBCF 3000: point-- it is our habit NOT to notice the Miraculous!
Grazhopprr: very comfortable music with your voice is a good way to start
RochelleDo: just dont "expect" from meditation or you defeat
RochelleDo: the purpose
FlowerJJN: that is meditation also ... Saeve ... does not have to be formal
RBCF 3000: SEEKNGSTUD, then this might possibly not be the right class for you at this time, eh?
RBCF Heart: Tonight's is the eighth class in the series, on the
RBCF Heart: theme of "How is Faith different from beliefs, and how
RBCF Heart: is it related to Spiritual Power?"
Raquelwel: Rochelle - I'm sure expecting doesn't help
Selph2000: listening to music and all that you named can be practice as mediation
AsianLotus: I think faith is a manifestation of the spirit, beliefs are what we are taught
Suzy0111: I learned mine
DCizunas: Raquel...kinda like being pregnant and waiting for it to happen...LOL!!
SEEKNGSTUD: Faith & beliefs are imagined spiritual "power" for the weak minded
RBCF 3000: Ok, let's move along. This class is not on meditational
RBCF 3000: practices primarily. So please hold comments once again
RBCF 3000: for the next idea. I appreciate your forbearance
RBCF 3000: Ok, once again PROTOCOL please, for a minute ........................................
RBCF 3000: First of all, what does faith have to do with achieving
RBCF 3000: ecstatic states of awareness? Maybe nothing, if we just
RBCF 3000: simply mean by it some general religious feelings or
RBCF 3000: beliefs, or a special degree of trust. But in the lineages
RBCF 3000: that I follow, faith has nothing to do with believing
RBCF 3000: anything, nor with the borrowed highs from
RBCF 3000: charismatic experiences.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: This Faith that I am describing is the core of being
Rebspirit1: Heart...belief is often part of a system...whereas, faith is based upon inner belief
RBCF 3000: that we each have at our very center, the Rock which
RBCF 3000: never wavers, but which we have covered over with
RBCF 3000: concerns, compromises, considerations, and "getting
RBCF 3000: along", which I believe really means making our
RBCF 3000: spirituality a lower priority than survival maintenance.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: Observation and tradition show that we rarely ever get
RBCF 3000: to this core until we have undergone major
RBCF 3000: transformation and, even then, it rarely lasts unless we
RBCF 3000: are kept in an environment which supports that
RBCF 3000: change, like various ashrams in India, or Tibetan
RBCF 3000: temples or tribal villages way off in the jungle.
RBCF 3000: .
Log Count: There were 17 member(s) in The New Age at 07:45 PM
RBCF 3000: The degree of change required for this kind of
RBCF 3000: transformation may occur by accident, as in near-
RBCF 3000: death experiences (NDEs), surviving a lightning bolt
RBCF 3000: or a crash or other sudden accidents, or prolonged
RBCF 3000: intense situations like torture, being held captive at
RBCF 3000: gunpoint, or facing imminent death; sometimes the
RBCF 3000: change occurs from a extended illness or painful injury.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: The other main set of circumstances which cause the
RBCF 3000: accidental (non-intentional) movement of faith, are a
RBCF 3000: whole range of what our society refers to as "mental or
RBCF 3000: emotional illness," autism or psychosis. In other
RBCF 3000: societies, such people have often been put into service
RBCF 3000: as oracles, seers, artists and performers, not having
RBCF 3000: many of the limitations that well-adjusted, normal
RBCF 3000: people have.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: I should make a bit of a distinction here-- I haven't
RBCF 3000: found that people that we classify as neurotic or
RBCF 3000: maladjusted generally make the kinds of shifts we are
RBCF 3000: looking for here. The shift takes something fairly
RBCF 3000: extreme to "kick over" enough for our other side to
RBCF 3000: show itself-- a quantum jump.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: For that reason, when the impetus is accidental or
RBCF 3000: external, the result is far more often the degeneration
RBCF 3000: or disintegration of the ego. It is only in rare instances
RBCF 3000: of these cases that the ordinary ego is replaced with a
RBCF 3000: knowing essence, something which transcends the
RBCF 3000: ordeals.
RBCF 3000: **** Do any of you know people with unusual abilities
RBCF 3000: like this, or have undergone these kinds of ordeals
RBCF 3000: yourself? Go right ahead with comments -- open floor
RBCF 3000: now .....
Rebspirit1: 3000...surpass the nuances of the environment and hold on to one's center
AsianLotus: Faith is a knowing that your beliefs are well founded
AsianLotus: Faith is a knowing that you can do anything and giving yourself the power to
Rebspirit1: Asian...but, cud we use belief in lieu of faith in that sentence? And how wud it change meaning
SparrowOvQ: one thing though Faith without action behind it does not move the mustard seed or mountain
AsianLotus: I think in a way it's synonymous
Rebspirit1: 3000....now that is what makes for a spiritual being..one who can
Suzy0111: I can do it
FlowerJJN: are you saying that ordinary people .. cannot transcend 3000 ??
Grazhopprr: average humans are too busy living and surviving to think about it
SparrowOvQ: I do not believe that in every case there need be a personal life tragedy to attain
SparrowOvQ: but then thats just my belief
DECLIGHT: methods come and go...the simple reality they are about stays
RBCF 3000: FlowerJJN, I am saying that we ourselves have to
RBCF 3000: *become* non-0rdinary to transcend. Makes sense?
DECLIGHT: simplicity is the simpler path, obviously
Rebspirit1: 3000..there were quite a few gross generalizations in that rhetoric?
DCizunas: Before that callus of responsibility takes over, we all have those abilities
DECLIGHT: to meditate is merely to look at yourself to discover yourself
RBCF 3000: Grazhopprr, exactly-- what does it take to "get busy" with transcendence?
FlowerJJN: okay .... :) 3000 because most that do transcend .. with humility .. seem ordinary ..
SEEKNGSTUD: so if I understand you right.. psychotic people are the "faithful" and the faith can only be
SEEKNGSTUD: practiced in an ashram or away from the real world?
Simmarah: Define Non Ordinary?
RBCF 3000: Rebspirit, yes, good observation
ClaritySS: Flower, I think what he is saying is that something very dramatic has to happen in one's life
Grazhopprr: 3k, the convincing of the human ego to undergo the necessary methods with follow thru
Rebspirit1: 3000...there are those who travel and find faith or belief
Simmarah: I have lived about ten yrs altogether in Yoga Ashrams
RBCF 3000: FlowerJJN, right-- often deliberately, to blend in, for several reasons, I've noticed.
SparrowOvQ: that is stories so often heard again I do not buy that it has to occur to attain
ClaritySS: for it to make us have the faith to manifest these experiences.. Flower.
DECLIGHT: instead of thinking your beliefs about yourself are true
Rebspirit1: 3000...some read books and find what others must suffer to learn
DCizunas: Seeky, you can get away from it all anyplace you happen to be...state of mind
LucidDreamweaver: Sometimes it takes one to fall flat on their back to be able to look upward
Rebspirit1: 3000..there is no unique pattern to growth of a soul...I think
FlowerJJN: Yes ... Clarity ... I gathered that's what he meant and I disagree
SparrowOvQ: Why not then if you want great spiritualness, faith and powers just take a hot branding iron
SparrowOvQ: or poker and fizz away
RBCF 3000: SEEKNGSTUD, only "psychotic" in a certain metaphorical
RBCF 3000: respect, and it really does help to begin away from
RBCF 3000: ordinary circumstances, and then come back into life and
RBCF 3000: work on it there.
Grazhopprr: sparrow, some have done that, lol
Simmarah: Sparrow in some sense that is a good analogy
Simmarah: Testing the fire
RBCF 3000: Rebspirit, you are right-- each path is unique. And yet,
RBCF 3000: there are similar things that are done along each path,
RBCF 3000: don't you agree?
SEEKNGSTUD: sounds like escaping to me! And I prefer being well adjusted and not psychotic!
Grazhopprr: the "ego" needs to be convinced that there is another side to existance before experience
DECLIGHT: soul is the infinite mechanism of self...it needs no learning...but we foist that upon it
Grazhopprr: remembering dreams needs ego's support to remember
ClaritySS: Flower, I agree with you on disagreeing with him, but then again, sometimes a kick in the ...
ClaritySS: butt is what we need to wake up to realize our power, flower!
Simmarah: GRAZ so you are saying ego has to be tricked?
DCizunas: Seek, I prefer not to be adjusted by anyone or anything, I'd rather be me
Kirstenese: agree, Graz, and needs to trust that other side too
RBCF 3000: SEEKNGSTUD, how are you doing with your "well-adjusted" program?
Grazhopprr: simm, not tricked, convinced of the reality of the experience
Simmarah: GRAZ but reality is relevant to situation only
FlowerJJN: I am not sure that is necessary Clarity :):) but it happens at times
Grazhopprr: 2 realities can be understood
RBCF 3000: Simmarah, I'd say that the ego always has to be tricked. It
RBCF 3000: would never ever ever ever go for everything it's going to
RBCF 3000: be put through!
ClaritySS: Yes , God knows, I have got butt kicked a few times, Flower!
SEEKNGSTUD: I am doing quite well so long as I recognize when someone else tries to manipulate my mind !
Simmarah: I believe ultimately ego has to be dissolved
Simmarah: though mine is fighting that LOL
FlowerJJN: Ego .. is the essence of who we are ....
Grazhopprr: i am here, but i am there also, can be understood by human mind/ego, thus retention
DivaofFire: Studley, we are all manipulated...
RBCF 3000: SEEKNGSTUD, I just wonder why this class fascinates you
RBCF 3000: then, enough for you to sit through time after time...?
DivaofFire: 3K.. maybe cause he is your favorite student?? <G>
ClaritySS: I totally agree with you , but do we always remember this, Flower, in the time of the ....
Planetshpr: I disagree Flower. To me, ego is the package of fear, old programs, issues and illusion we
Grazhopprr: simm, ego can't be dissolved, it is you here or in spirit. it just needs to be convinced
Planetshpr: used to believe was us.
Planetshpr: it is not the TRUE us, imho.
RBCF 3000: Simmarah, it makes sense, doesn't it, that there has to be a
RBCF 3000: place to stand outside of that which is undergoing the
RBCF 3000: ordeal, right?
FlowerJJN: That is also who we are Planet :) no disagreement there ..
RBCF Heart: please keep greets to Ims
Simmarah: GRAZ part of Yogi Bhajan's teaching state neccesity to let go of ego
Simmarah: which I agree with
Simmarah: IS FAITH a "system"?
SEEKNGSTUD: it helps me recognise BS from reality...
DECLIGHT: how interesting that we sit here and agree and disagree as though that were important
Grazhopprr: simm, no prob, heh. we go our own ways in the end.
RBCF 3000: Simmarah, I regard Faith as a great gift, and find that I can
RBCF 3000: describe some sort of "system" for realizing Faith in
RBCF 3000: practice.
SparrowOvQ: and Yogi Berra says " how can you hit the ball and plan on it at the same time
FlowerJJN: It is not really important, DECLight ... as long as we accept what others believe .. I think
ClaritySS: don't you think it is important, Declight?
AsianLotus: Dec I don't think this is an open forum, have to wait
Simmarah: 3000 I would say that it only makes "sense" fro ma "rational " view point
RBCF 3000: SparrowOvQ, quantum physics asks the same question-- we'll be looking at that next week
DECLIGHT: I do not accept what others believe...merely their right to believe it
Simmarah: DEC Exactly!!
FlowerJJN: Thats what I meant DECLIGHT :)
AsianLotus: True Dec
DANZ649: Dec, true enough.
Grazhopprr: sometimes it's good not to believe in anything. just allow what happens.
AsianLotus: Right on Graz
Planetshpr: thanks, Graz... right on point...
DECLIGHT: but even though they have the right to believe whatever, does not make it okay for them
DoveOP: drat, something wrong with that key
RBCF 3000: Simmarah, maybe it would be fair to say that those who
RBCF 3000: have the gift of Faith go through these motions as a
RBCF 3000: gesture...?
Simmarah: Actually I believe in a lot of things others do Just not in same way or same Order
Planetshpr: not my business, Dec.
FlowerJJN: But who are we to decide that DECLIGHT ??
DECLIGHT: the deeper the entrenchment in widely unaligned thought, the less beneficial
Planetshpr: whether what someone believes works for them, is not for me to say.
ClaritySS: Declight...I think it can be important , I mean what each of us beliefs will affect the ...
DANZ649: when something "just happens", you have a choice to believe or change it.
Planetshpr: ... unless ... <grinning> they ask me.
DECLIGHT: it is anyone's business if they care to make it so
Simmarah: 3000 I see Faith as applied consciousness The Action of doing your "beliefs"
ClaritySS: universal energy, Declight
RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, how is your Faith doing right now?
Planetshpr: <smiling broadly>... most excellent 3K!
DoveOP: manifest destiny, self fulfilling prophesy
Kirstenese: I agree, Clarity, good point.
Grazhopprr: belief can be a good start, if following others steps. but you end up in your own path
AsianLotus: 3000, I have faith and belief in ONE thing, myself
Planetshpr: to live as I do, 3K, one MUST have faith.
Log Count: There were 22 member(s) in The New Age at 08:00 PM
Planetshpr: or go down in flames.
DANZ649: lol, Planet.
RBCF 3000: Simmarah, maybe then we should say that there are
RBCF 3000: several levels of faith, in which a preliminary level would
RBCF 3000: be doing the practices faithfully, eh?
DECLIGHT: the single object of meditation is far beyond any energy
Kirstenese: the colective/mass consciousness
RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, that's what I say, and sometimes I see no way
RBCF 3000: to "live as I do" another minute!
Simmarah: 3000 I would say that that is the only real level IMO in this form/body
ClaritySS: Does anybody know what 'mass events ' means?
Grazhopprr: ask a woman if they believe in only one hairstyle
Planetshpr: ^5 3K! LOL!
JacobJG: FAith is mostly what we'
JacobJG: faith is mostly what we're inculcated with growing up
JacobJG: it's what so many stick with just to be good children
RBCF 3000: <-- bumps hips and does a jig with Planet
Planetshpr: hmmm... well.. there is faith, Jacob... then there is BLIND faith... lol!
AsianLotus: Right on Planet
RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, does it seem like "blind faith" is really even *faith*???
ClaritySS: We are all here together and yet, all kinds of subjects are being discussed, if we were ...
JacobJG: isn't all faith reasonless?
JacobJG: so then blind faith IS the same
Planetshpr: 3K... are we polishing an act to take on the road here? roflmao!
ClaritySS: if we were sharing the same subject, we would be sharing realities as well.
DECLIGHT: faith is what you are
Planetshpr: No, 3K... blind faith is actually unexamined belief sets.
Simmarah: 3000 ?? Absolute Faith ?? Does it need "eyes" ??
DECLIGHT: looking at yourself will reveal this
AsianLotus: Right DEC
Grazhopprr: blind faith in anothers steps is what this lifetime might be, for some, no judgements
DECLIGHT: and the confidence in the reality of YOU...becomes your evidence of faith
DECLIGHT: (or things not seen)
DCizunas: Sounds to me like the definition being given is that faith is gut instinct...
DCizunas: ...and belief is adhering to a set of preexisting tenets
RBCF 3000: Simmarah, I find that it somehow has its very own "eyes"
DANZ649: blind faith is what we are told and we"blindly"follow it.
Simmarah: 3000 :o )
Planetshpr: not a judgment, Graz... some operate on beliefs they never actually examine. just IS.
Kirstenese: faith= believing but not seeing
DECLIGHT: faith has nothing whatsoever to do with believing
SEEKNGSTUD: faith is what one tries when they DON'T know
Grazhopprr: which is what they need at that time. openness to ideas follow eventually.
DoveOP: and if the belief is strong enough, the see follows
RBCF 3000: Kirstenese, does it make sense that we have to give up our
RBCF 3000: limited "seeing" in order to replace it with seeing in more
RBCF 3000: dimensions?
RBCF 3000: SEEKNGSTUD, good way to put it
DANZ649: I have learned not to "believe" everything I am told, it must be examined, as Planet said.
Freethinker40: beliefs are who we are....having faith in those beliefs is the spirtual
DCizunas: Me too Danz
LucidDreamweaver: Very well put Free
Kirstenese: 3000 I believe that at first we need to give up our "seeing" and play , sort of speak,
Kirstenese: with the imagination.
DANZ649: applauding Free.
RBCF 3000: Freethinker, somehow I think it's just the opposite. How
RBCF 3000: could *beliefs* be "who we are"??? Beliefs are words-- are
RBCF 3000: we born with words?
Grazhopprr: belief is how this physical universe is formed, agreed upon. lifting mind above that
Grazhopprr: agreement is learning to not believe
DECLIGHT: Kirstenese.....good call
Freethinker40: not so.......3000
AsianLotus: We are born with knowledge and the understanding of words
RBCF 3000: Kirstenese, right, although I've gotten lost in imagination, myself, a time or two
Freethinker40: we are what we believe we are to be
DoveOP: why is a belief not a thought? 3000.... or a dream even
RBCF 3000: Freethinker, please go on ...
Freethinker40: we create reality through our beliefs
SEEKNGSTUD: Free..nope..we are what we are... then we make up a theory about it
RBCF 3000: Freethinker, I completely agree, but does that make us who we are???
Kirstenese: :) 3000, I understand
Grazhopprr: "not agreeing" with this physical dimensions agreement got me in trouble once, lol
DECLIGHT: a belief IS a thought...and erroneous illusion thought...unreal thought
Planetshpr: how's that, Graz?
Freethinker40: your beliefs create who you are
DECLIGHT: faith is the single real thought...and YOU are IT
Planetshpr: we don't KNOW that beliefs are erroneous or illusionary, Dec...
RBCF 3000: Grazhopprr, me, lots more than once-- getting tired of community service
DECLIGHT: Planet...perhaps...but it is there for you to find out if you wish
Grazhopprr: planet, i built a mantra for conscious use in the daytime. driving a truck isn't good for
SEEKNGSTUD: Free.. you are ..first..then you come up with a belief about it
DCizunas: But Free, by giving up those beliefs can lead us to greater dimensions
Grazhopprr: leaving the body
Planetshpr: LOL! Graz! OUCH!
Grazhopprr: scared the phtttttt outa me, rofl
Planetshpr: Agreed, DEC, absolutely.
DCizunas: Graz, tell me what road you're on so I won't be there...LOL!!
DECLIGHT: and positutely
Grazhopprr: don't do that no mo
Planetshpr: zip-zap, one minute you're out, one minute yer back in yer body? WOW!
RBCF 3000: Grazhopprr, why should it be a risk, if the "truck-driving"
RBCF 3000: "reality" disappears, replaced by wherever we go next?
Planetshpr: ahhh, the challenge of the New Age, 3K... navigating between consensus reality and ... um...
Planetshpr: the higher plane?
Grazhopprr: well, i felt a bit responsible for the truck going 40 miles an hour in rush hour traffic, lo
Planetshpr: one foot on each.
RBCF 3000: For example, THIS reality is where I went when I disappeared the last one, I think ...
Planetshpr: WOW! good'un, 3K! YES!
Grazhopprr: news flash, empty box truck carreens into traffic, major back up on i-5
Planetshpr: Film at 11, eh Graz?
DCizunas: Foxes brought up something the other night that I've been thinking of...maybe someone...
Freethinker40: change a belief and you change your perciption of reality
DCizunas: ...steps in during times we are away to carry on our everyday life
RBCF 3000: Freethinker, exactly true, I believe.
Freethinker40: this is how physical reality works
Grazhopprr: heh,,,,body double
RBCF 3000: DCizunas, it's always ourselves, I find
RBCF 3000: Ok, let's continue tonight's class, dear friends. Please hold
RBCF 3000: comments a minute while I roll this next turkey out :)
RBCF 3000: ...........................................
RBCF 3000: Ok, we have talked about unintentional or
RBCF 3000: serendipitous shifts into the hidden side of ourselves.
RBCF 3000: Now let's take a look at traditions (or lineages) which
RBCF 3000: deliberately induce extreme shifts, not only over an
RBCF 3000: extended period of time, but with a focus and intensity
RBCF 3000: designed to crack the shell of normalcy and security.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: The Eastern traditions tend to be life-long, integrative
RBCF 3000: disciplines, as depicted in the old Kung-Fu TV series (at
RBCF 3000: least, I like to think so), combining daily practices of
RBCF 3000: meditation, service, martial arts, knowledge studies
RBCF 3000: and special challenges, like walking on rice-paper
RBCF 3000: without leaving a footprint, or handling red-hot
RBCF 3000: hardware.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: Aside from physical challenges, the intellect may be
RBCF 3000: overwhelmed with Zen koans ("What is the sound of
RBCF 3000: one hand clapping?") or Taoist conundrums, and the
RBCF 3000: emotions will be challenged with moral dilemmas--
RBCF 3000: who shall live and who shall die, when to temper
RBCF 3000: justice with mercy, when a lie is more true than the
RBCF 3000: truth ("where the truth lies"), and so on.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: Those are the preliminary exercises. As we get deeper
RBCF 3000: into these paths, our very soul is tested. This is what is
RBCF 3000: depicted in so many ways in scripture and mythology.
RBCF 3000: On the one side, we are tempted with wealth and glory
RBCF 3000: and gratification, usually at someone else's expense,
RBCF 3000: and on the other side we are left helpless, friendless,
RBCF 3000: shunned and despised, with no respite in sight.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: What we usually don't realize is that it is the very
RBCF 3000: futility of finding the "treasure at the end of the
RBCF 3000: rainbow" (since a rainbow is an infinite circle) which
RBCF 3000: leads us into the "underworld" of our own
RBCF 3000: subconscious, and it is there that we find the real
RBCF 3000: treasures. The risk is almost always stated as death,
RBCF 3000: madness, or becoming trapped and enslaved by
RBCF 3000: monsters like the cyclops, the Gorgon or dragons.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: The way I have come to understand these metaphors
RBCF 3000: is that these are not risks, but *certainties* which we
RBCF 3000: will encounter on this journey. We will go through
RBCF 3000: madness as our limited ego enocunters the Abyss; we
RBCF 3000: will be (and we already are!) trapped by "monsters"--
RBCF 3000: the fixations of our self-deceit, delusions,
RBCF 3000: "righteousness," indoctrinations and, most insidious of
RBCF 3000: all, the decisions we started making when we were
RBCF 3000: infants reacting to a rather harsh world totally beyond
RBCF 3000: our comprehension.
RBCF 3000: .
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RBCF 3000: We consider these infantile decisions to be our
RBCF 3000: "nature." We say, "That's just who I am," whenever
RBCF 3000: someone tries to point our insanity out to us. That is
RBCF 3000: why we die when we finally come to that terrible and
RBCF 3000: loathesome place in ourselves where all our old ideas
RBCF 3000: of self collapse.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: When people are tested at this level, it is very common
RBCF 3000: to undergo psychotic break, and often commit suicide.
RBCF 3000: Or they may go on a berserk rampage, or put together
RBCF 3000: a cult whose principles may sound very nice and
RBCF 3000: spiritual, but end up in seige with the FBI, or in a
RBCF 3000: cataclysm of mass self-destruction.
RBCF 3000: ****** Are these notions completely absurd, or do they
RBCF 3000: start to make sense out of a senseless world? Open
RBCF 3000: floor now, please go right ahead ...
Lorinaz: soul steps out of the body while the body sleeps
Grazhopprr: sounds like me, lo
Planetshpr: that is what is promised if we DO NOT go into our underworld, 3K.... in any event.
Planetshpr: COUNT on breakdown, disease, the hell of a belief system that no longer operates in reality.
Chesster67: why would the self want to destroy itself..is self-realisation self annihilation?
RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, doesn't it seem like we can volunteer to
RBCF 3000: embrace the Dark, or be dragged into it anyway?
Planetshpr: What we resist, persists, 3K. What we embrace, gives grace.
AsianLotus: I don't think it would Chess
RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, yer a poet, n you showit
Grazhopprr: don't look down
Chesster67: asian, then why suicide?
DECLIGHT: the self is presently getting what it wants...but thinks it doesn't want
Planetshpr: that is a personal truth from the very journey you describe.
DCizunas: That thought train seems to reflect current times...gone is the perfect family of the 50's..
AsianLotus: A choice to leave the physical plane
DECLIGHT: down the seeming road/path a bit, as the self aligns itself and stabilizes,
Chesster67: asian, do you believe in self0hatred?
DECLIGHT: it will seem much better
DCizunas: ...we all must make our own way
Freethinker40: agreed ........dec
RBCF 3000: Chesster, that's the very point-- the ego-self ("lower self") is
RBCF 3000: going to do everything it can NOT to!
AsianLotus: Not really
Drifting Current: the self knows what it needs
AsianLotus: I believe in a lack of self love
Chesster67: RBCF, i don't understand what you mean
Chesster67: asian, not hate?
RBCF 3000: DecLight, just takes a bit o' patience, eh?
Grazhopprr: self-hatred is a reality to some
AsianLotus: No hate is really hurt
DECLIGHT: despite our seeming trapped in lower self...it actually does not exist
Drifting Current: patience indeed
Chesster67: graz, i believe we all suffer from it
DECLIGHT: that is why meditation becomes necessary, to release us from that bond
Chesster67: dec, what do you mean??
Planetshpr: most definitely, self-hatred, self-judgment exists. I believe it to be the underlying sourc
RBCF 3000: Chesster, what I mean by what, please?
Planetshpr: e of all disease.
AsianLotus: Sometimes we are trapped in pure pain
DECLIGHT: which is the BELIEF in our ego, etc.
Planetshpr: it is always illusion... but presents the lessons of the soul.
Drifting Current: meditation is great stuff to practice
DCizunas: So true Planet
Chesster67: RBCF, our lower self will doeverything it cannto do?
Freethinker40: night all
DANZ649: Asian, you have a choice to not be trapped.
Drifting Current: night Free
AsianLotus: Right Dan
DECLIGHT: meditation when one understands it correctly, is what we are...not something we do
AsianLotus: I agree DEC
Chesster67: dec, who are we?
AsianLotus: We are he and I and many others
Drifting Current: yesm Declight, something we are
RBCF 3000: Chesster, nope-- our lower ego is the resistance-- it's up to
RBCF 3000: High Self (that's where all the Faith is) to trick and trap the
RBCF 3000: lower self into making the changes.
DECLIGHT: the entire point of spiritual endeavor is to release that erroneous view of self
DCizunas: Dec, kinda like returning home after we've been away
Chesster67: RBCF, how can we trick ourselves?
DECLIGHT: DC...in a sense, yes
Drifting Current: ego is good tricker
DECLIGHT: of like awaking from a dream
RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, right-- and yet it is not the erroneous-view that releases itself, eh?
DECLIGHT: only to go back to bed so we can dream some more LOL
Grazhopprr: tricking the lower self only ticks it off, lol. waste of time in the end
DANZ649: coyote medicine.
DCizunas: Good analogy Dec
RBCF 3000: Chesster, do you have a cat or a dog? How do you clip its claws or give it medicine, etc.?
Drifting Current: maybe bed, maybe a sitting
DECLIGHT: 3000...the erroneous view can do nothing...but attention on the reality of self can
DECLIGHT: it can completely reverse thought and undo error
RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, wonderful-- you have anticipated my next comments, coming up in a minute.
DECLIGHT: as attention to what is real presents understanding that replaces beliefs
Planetshpr: there ARE tricks, 3K... but... are they really tricks?
Grazhopprr: ego is logical, convincing the mind works better
RBCF 3000: Grazhopprr, unless ego gets its treats for having gone thru
RBCF 3000: it, like we do for our pets, right?
SparrowOvQ: you all do realize that normal busy people for the most part do not concern themselves with
SparrowOvQ: thse things right?
Chesster67: RBCF, cannot the "lower self" change by itself?
Planetshpr: "normal busy people" --- roflmAAAAAAiooooo!!!
Grazhopprr: 3k, results work better than trinkets
AsianLotus: Right Sparrow
DANZ649: what's normal??????
RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, "tricks" is a metaphor-- could be described as a "gesture" or a dance.
SparrowOvQ: it was a trick question
Planetshpr: "normal busy people" come to me cause their lives aren't WORKING!
AsianLotus: What's real?
Planetshpr: ... a dance, 3K... I like that.
RBCF 3000: Chesster, it will never happen-- the lower self is cast in
Chesster67: asian, all that exists
RBCF 3000: concrete very early, never really changes.
AsianLotus: For whom Chess
Drifting Current: there are always ways to manipulate words and
Drifting Current: meanings
Chesster67: RBCF, so we are two people?
DANZ649: dancing is movement of energy.
AsianLotus: My reality would not always match others'
Chesster67: asian, for existence itself
DANZ649: shift, shift.
Planetshpr: nicely put, Danz!
DECLIGHT: Asian....re what's real....YOU R
RBCF 3000: DANZ, "normal" means not deviating. Necessary to deviate
RBCF 3000: quite a bit to achieve the Miraculous.
Chesster67: asian, true
Grazhopprr: 3k, i can see you know nothing about respect for self if you must trick it for results
RBCF 3000: Chesster, 100's or 1,000's !
Planetshpr: Graz... self? or Self?
SparrowOvQ: I will take my abbynormal self off here now
DECLIGHT: oh yes it would Asian
Grazhopprr: either or
DANZ649: I know 3K
AsianLotus: 3000, aren't we going around and around with beliefs and of what importance is it?
RBCF 3000: Grazhopprr, mighty charitable of you, to go into judgment of me personally... NOT!
Planetshpr: another time, Sparrow....
Grazhopprr: easy enuf with what you have said, quite
DECLIGHT: oh 3000...you are fun to judge
RBCF 3000: AsianLotus, this all has to be done metaphorically-- it is
RBCF 3000: really adding up to something, count on it
DECLIGHT: don't spoil all our fun
AsianLotus: Ok, I am new at this
RBCF 3000: Now we come to our exciting conclusion for this
RBCF 3000: evening's class -- please hold comments while I roll
RBCF 3000: out the final section .................................................
Planetshpr: you guys are kidding, right? you don't KNOW that all judgment is, in the end, SELF judgment?
DANZ649: sometimes takes awhile to get to the heart of the matter, Asian
DECLIGHT: the only real judgment is reality itself
RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, I do believe you are right about that
DECLIGHT: what is is....simple
Grazhopprr: it is a poor child that has parents that trick them into things instead of teaching them
Grazhopprr: with love
Chesster67: amen dec
RBCF 3000: (It's ok with me if we don't come to consensus on these
RBCF 3000: notions right now-- we're going around something to find
RBCF 3000: out what it is
RBCF 3000: Ok, final section of the class--
RBCF 3000: ............................................................
RBCF 3000: Why would anyone choose to undergo the collapse of
RBCF 3000: ego, and how could one possibly trust someone or
RBCF 3000: some method willing and able to accomplish such a
RBCF 3000: thing? Aha! Now I have a reason to bring faith back
RBCF 3000: in, after seeming to stray far away from it.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: Maybe the only real way to describe this level of faith
RBCF 3000: is like when you awaken in the morning after a string
RBCF 3000: of nightmares. All night your feet have been stuck in
RBCF 3000: tar, your mother didn't know you, and you were
RBCF 3000: totally helpless to prevent all kinds of mayhem.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: But here are the gentle rays of warmth enticing you to
RBCF 3000: try another day in the light; here are the sweet songs
RBCF 3000: of bluebirds and chickadees. The sky is blue, and you
RBCF 3000: can smell your favorite breakfast cooking in the
RBCF 3000: kitchen.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: You start writing down your dreams, and you realize
RBCF 3000: that there wasn't really anything horrible in them;
RBCF 3000: everything that happened was just exactly what it took
RBCF 3000: for you to get a particular point, and you even feel
RBCF 3000: happy and grateful for having received such gifts. You
RBCF 3000: find yourself looking forward to your life, whatever
RBCF 3000: your day brings you. :)
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: What I have just described is not faith, though-- this is
RBCF 3000: the *result* of faith. Faith is what got us through that
RBCF 3000: dark night. It is not something we did, because we
RBCF 3000: were helpless and entirely ignorant of what could or
RBCF 3000: should be done. It is apparently not anything we could
RBCF 3000: have "deserved," because we were abominably wicked
RBCF 3000: and selfish in our nightmares.
RBCF 3000: .
Log Count: There were 14 member(s) in The New Age at 08:30 PM
RBCF 3000: The original Latin meaning of faith was "to trust," but
RBCF 3000: in our nightmares we lost trust over and over again.
RBCF 3000: So the closest meaning I can think of would be loyalty
RBCF 3000: because, in spite of all our fear and cynicism and self-
RBCF 3000: justification and delusion, something held us together
RBCF 3000: long enough to wake up on this fine, sunny morning
RBCF 3000: of the soul.
RBCF 3000: .
RBCF 3000: I promise you that, if you stay with us on this
RBCF 3000: extraordinary journey, you will meet the author of this
RBCF 3000: unaccountable faith, and your life will be changed
RBCF 3000: forever.
RBCF 3000: ****** Well, friends, those are the ideas that I'd like
RBCF 3000: you to think about for yourselves. Now let's hear your
RBCF 3000: questions and comments.
Drifting Current: maybe ego really is something wicked worth
Drifting Current: going beyond
Chesster67: RBCF, so the christians would say
DECLIGHT: faith is its own result
Drifting Current: that is alot
Drifting Current: maybe ego is worth going beyond
Drifting Current: we are all on a path of our own device
Planetshpr: 3K, faith and trust are a choice.
Planetshpr: made regardless (some times in SPITE of) circumstances.
RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, yes, and *making* that choice every moment takes what kind of energy?
Planetshpr: from the toes up, 3K.
Chesster67: RBCF, are you a christian?
RBCF 3000: Chesster, I call myself a mystical Christian.
Drifting Current: what we choose to recognize may benefit us
Planetshpr: everything I have.
AsianLotus: 3000, I have been in metaphysics for 27 yrs and never had the opportunity to hear this
Planetshpr: over and over, every moment.
AsianLotus: thank you for sharing
RBCF 3000: AsianLotus, thanks, and doesn't it make sense with what you have learned?
Grazhopprr: will power
Chesster67: RBCF, would you consider yourself a Buddhist?
RBCF 3000: Chesster, yes, I am a Buddhist
Drifting Current: there are many who see nothing of a path
Drifting Current: one minute it might change and many are
Drifting Current: instrumental in the change
RBCF 3000: Drifting Current, many what?
Planetshpr: 3K, I have a dear friend, a man of enormous commitment to this process who says,
Planetshpr: if he had known what it would take when he started 22 years ago,
Planetshpr: he would have just eaten a bullet!
DCizunas: I can go along with that Plant!!
Drifting Current: if any of us know, we share what we know maybe
Planetshpr: I knew him 22 years ago... the path was WORTH it.
Chesster67: RBCF, do you believe Jesus' death on the cross atones for our sins?
RBCF Heart: commitment takes great courage
RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, I agree-- I thought when I decided against
RBCF 3000: suicide 40 years ago, that the worst of it was over
Planetshpr: roflmao 3K!!!!!!
RBCF 3000: Chesster, I have no idea what any of that means-- please explain...
DECLIGHT: well now, the shedding of blood for remission...I can relate to that
DECLIGHT: and not in the traditional Christian way either
DANZ649: I am grateful for the path I have taken, lessons learned were hard, and recurring, but very
DANZ649: well worth the journey.
Chesster67: RBCF, do you believe that Jesus gave his life on the cross for the sins of humanity?
RBCF 3000: DANZ, good, because there's lots more coming!
Chesster67: dec, in what way?
DECLIGHT: yes DANZ....we can all be grateful for our lives, each as wonderful as the others
FoxesTruth: Chesster.......I think that is
FoxesTruth: propoganda........sorry to say.....meaning no disrespect
AsianLotus: Well night all, thanks for the insights
Galaxon: Chester nope...i sure don't
RBCF 3000: Chesster, no, I don't *believe* any of those words, because
RBCF 3000: they don't have meaning for me.
Chesster67: Foxes, can one be a christian without believing it though?
DECLIGHT: Chess....the belief in blood as the source of life must be shed
DECLIGHT: in order to see the truth of spirit as the source of life
Drifting Current: goodnight all I have to go
DECLIGHT: which vision is faith
Chesster67: RBCF, does Jesus's death mean anything to you?
Galaxon: chester Can one worship okra without eating it?
FoxesTruth: Chesster........probably not......I think
FoxesTruth: Christians are simply defined by believing that
FoxesTruth: Jesus Christ is their Saviour
DCizunas: Chesster...who sins?? All are children of "god" and children do make mistakes
RBCF 3000: Chesster, His eternal Presence is all that means anything to me!
Chesster67: Dec, could you please rephrase that?
Galaxon: Jesus died and came back to demonstrate that death is an illusion
Chesster67: foxes, saviour in what way?
RBCF 3000: Galaxon, good point!
DCizunas: ITA Galax
Planetshpr: nice work if you can get it, Galaxon!
DECLIGHT: Chess....I think it was phrased fine
Chesster67: DC, we all sin
Kirstenese: I agree with that Gal
DANZ649: (reincarnation) Galaxon?!
Alisnntrnt: Gala, did okra wrong you in this life or another?
Galaxon: Plan hmm. not me
FoxesTruth: Once I realized that God was within...........my
FoxesTruth: sense of inner peace became truth beyond any
FoxesTruth: other truth I have ever known...and is still
FoxesTruth: revealing itself
Galaxon: Dan well....reincarnation exists but that was not the thrust of it....
Chesster67: dec, are you talking to hear yourself?
DCizunas: Chess...I make mistakes and know of no one who sins
RBCF 3000: DCizunas, right-- that's why I define "sin" as "a moment of
RBCF 3000: forgetting" till I remember again
Planetshpr: but indeed, that IS one of the lessons of the Christed One's story.
Chesster67: what must we shed?
DANZ649: well said. thanks.
Planetshpr: that the body is an illusion.
Chesster67: DC, what do you mean by "sin"?
DECLIGHT: sounds so naturally perfect Foxes
DECLIGHT: actually no Chess
Chesster67: RB, why do we forget?
RBCF 3000: Chesster, please be patient with us-- we all do that
DCizunas: Chess...what do YOU mean by sin??
Galaxon: sin is merely when a thought about a thing is in error
RBCF 3000: Chesster, quantum differences of spiritual energy, I figure
FoxesTruth: Declight..........it is to me
Chesster67: DC, i mean doing what we know is wrong
DECLIGHT: nothing wrong with believing in Jesus...just realize it is only a belief
DECLIGHT: and that Jesus did not teach that he was all that
DCizunas: Chess, kinda like children trying something they shouldn't??
FoxesTruth: agreed Declight
So so Rus: faith and belief huh
RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, what do you call it when we experience the Presence of Jesus?
Chesster67: dec, i found your statement about the source of life intriguing
Chesster67: i did not understand it though
DCizunas: Oh yes, Dec
Chesster67: DC, we all do wrong
Galaxon: I have gotten the presents of Jesus...i took
Galaxon: them back to walmart and got the money for
So so Rus: in the spiritual relm one cannot exist without the other
Planetshpr: define "wrong" Chesster?
FoxesTruth: Jesus taught that all humans have the powers of
FoxesTruth: the Source........which are ultimately
FoxesTruth: omnipotent, omnipresent, and
FoxesTruth: omniscient..........we are only bound by our beliefs......
DCizunas: True Chess, we make mistakes as any child who is learning will do and we learn from them
Chesster67: planet, i will not define it...you know what wrong is
Planetshpr: know, Chess, I do not. I gave up "duality"...
Chesster67: Foxes, where did Jesus teach that?
DECLIGHT: 3000....one can call experiencing the presence of Jesus...or what they believe to be that...
DECLIGHT: anything they wish
RBCF 3000: FoxesTruth, that's what I've been going by-- do you have the chapter/verse ref's btw?
Planetshpr: I no longer live in right/wrong.
Planetshpr: I live in what IS.
Galaxon: Jesus said with faith all things are possible...that is limitless
RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, I knew you'd say that, and of course you are right.
FoxesTruth: no I don't RBCF..........would that validate it
DECLIGHT: 3000....been there, done that...and spirit led me to a better understanding of it
Chesster67: Planet, selfishness, apathy towards others, greed, hate...this is wrong
DECLIGHT: are you another one of those tricksters 3000 LOL
RBCF 3000: FoxesTruth, not at all, but it gives me something to do in arguments on street corners
DCizunas: Galax, I like the saying "I asked "god" why" Reply was why not?
Planetshpr: no, Chess, those things are not "wrong"... they are just judgments.
FoxesTruth: Planet......agreed.....that is lower mind....
Chesster67: planet, and should we not judge such?
Planetshpr: what IS selfish?
Galaxon: Dc the why was from the thoughts
Grazhopprr: there is no wrong anymore than a lion killing a zebra is wrong
Planetshpr: Judge not, Chess, lest ye be judged.
FoxesTruth: 3000..........in what book would there be a
FoxesTruth: reference do you think???
DECLIGHT: << does not have a lower mind
Chesster67: planet, do you know what greed is?
DECLIGHT: << also does not have a higher mind
DCizunas: So true Galax
Planetshpr: greed is a judgment, Chess.
Galaxon: Judge not lest ye be type cast on People's Court
Chesster67: planet, and not real?
YusefNouri: when you examine what Christians believe quite closely...its actually very beautiful
FoxesTruth: LOL Declight....is that only for egoists??
RBCF 3000: FoxesTruth, I'll bring up my Bible CD-ROM, maybe it's cross-refed.
DCizunas: Galax, LOL!!
DECLIGHT: frankly, I think we've forgotten what a mind is for
Chesster67: Yuse, amen
YusefNouri: as long as they don't start acting negative
Planetshpr: no, Chess.... NOT real. How MUCH constitutes greed?
DECLIGHT: probably Foxes....our private hell
FoxesTruth: 3000/..........I wouldn't know....never read the
Chesster67: planet, just the slightest bit
RBCF 3000: YusefNouri, some of it is, anyway-- not the "moral" stuff, for my tastes.
Planetshpr: If I feel I need $5 million a year, is that greed?
Chesster67: planet, how much of what?
Planetshpr: What if my corporation supports hundreds of employees with that $5 million?
DECLIGHT: no Planet...just untrue
FoxesTruth: 3000......I channel my information hon..........
Chesster67: planet, if you need it..no
Chesster67: of course not planet
Planetshpr: still greed?
YusefNouri: I understand RBCF
RBCF 3000: FoxesTruth, I just swiped a Gideon from the hotel room-- it's actually fascinating.
DCizunas: Foxes, try reading it sometime...it's got the same things as other scripture
Planetshpr: see, Chesster... just a judgment.
Planetshpr: a circumstantial judgment, at that.
Chesster67: planet, may i give you an example of greed?
DECLIGHT: Yuse...I have examined what Christians believe very very closely
FoxesTruth: DC.....oh I tried when I was a Christian.........
Chesster67: may i?
DECLIGHT: and it's not beautiful at all
Planetshpr: sure, Chess, go for it. I do not enroll in duality.
DANZ649: IMHO, God gave us brains, we are to decide how to use them.
RBCF 3000: Chesster, just try not to make a mess with it
FoxesTruth: so is this chat on Christianity?
DECLIGHT: which is one of the two main reasons I do not call myself Christian anymore
DCizunas: LOL Foxes...sometimes it reads better from a more neutral point of view
DECLIGHT: Foxes....could be LOL
Chesster67: planet, let us pretend that you are stuck on an island with...your father......
YusefNouri: I can only say what my experience has been
FoxesTruth: oh boy
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RBCF 3000: FoxesTruth, it's on the inner meaning of "faith", so I guess
RBCF 3000: we have to deal with christianity, right?
FoxesTruth: 3000........oh no.......that's not true
Chesster67: there is food enough for the two of you to live for a while....
RBCF 3000: Next week: The connection between the principles of
RBCF 3000: modern physics and the mystery of Existence. Please
RBCF 3000: continue whatever daily practices you are doing-- we'll
RBCF 3000: be using everything that results from them.
Chesster67: you decide to beat your father up and eat the food for yourselfl leaving him to suffer...
Chesster67: and to die....
Lorinaz: 3K Thank you so much for sharing your love and ideas
Chesster67: that is greed, no?
RBCF 3000: All the previous logues are downloadable from
RBCF 3000: keyword "New Age", Library II, if you missed any of
RBCF 3000: the previous classes, and tonight's logue (#8) will be
RBCF 3000: available within the next week.
YusefNouri: Christianity isn't that much of a threat....drugs, alcohol, porno...etc...that's the stuff
YusefNouri: that destroys lives
DECLIGHT: actually, Jesus is about getting us to realize the truth and thereby save ourselves
DECLIGHT: in that context, he brought salvation
Grazhopprr: tosses mags into bag
Planetshpr: no, I did not forget, Chesster.
DECLIGHT: but certainly was not alone in bringing it
Planetshpr: I killed my father to eat his food... that about the size of it?
Alisnntrnt: DEC, that could describe many paths
RBCF 3000: Chesster, but it sounds like Jesus is some father-figure to
RBCF 3000: come and take care of us wretched sinners. To me, Jesus
RBCF 3000: the Christ is way way way more than that.
Galaxon: the term "saviour" only means someone who shows you that yhou are living in an illusion
Chesster67: RBCF, in what way?
Planetshpr: I don't see greed in that example, Chesster.
FoxesTruth: Voices...is that you Yogi?
Chesster67: planet, what do you see?
Planetshpr: were you going to add something to make it greed?
Grazhopprr: saviour validates the need to be saved, it's an agreement
FoxesTruth: saviour also means teacher
Galaxon: foxees that is waht a saviour teaches
VoicesInTheWindd: not always so Grazz
RBCF 3000: Chesster, He is for sure the Way and the Truth and the
RBCF 3000: Light, but that doesn't make Him separate from me,
RBCF 3000: because He reveals His Path as the same one that leads
RBCF 3000: right back up to God.
Chesster67: planet, you took more than your fair share, neglecting that well being of your father..
Chesster67: evil selfishness
Planetshpr: Chesster, I see 2 people on an island sharing resources to the extent they did.
DCizunas: I can't imagine the kind of feelings you have Chess, love All my fellow men, not just relation...
VoicesInTheWindd: but usually yes
Galaxon: foxes me what?
Chesster67: DC? excuse me?
Galaxon: foxes will an energy hug work?
FoxesTruth: sure thing
Planetshpr: "fair" is a judgment, Chesster... My father knew I was pregnant with twins... He ALSO knew
VoicesInTheWindd: it will I will
FoxesTruth: Voices..........aaahhhhhhhh I thought so
Planetshpr: he was dying of a terminal disease.
Galaxon: fox ok...from the feet up
Chesster67: planet, is everything just judgments?
Planetshpr: he sacrificed himself that my children might live.
Galaxon: Voice so what will?
Planetshpr: absolutely, Chesster.
DECLIGHT: sacrifice is contraindicated...and the idea that Jesus sacrificed is nonsense
Grazhopprr: don't remember the pregnant part
DECLIGHT: if you merely look even casually at what that so-called sacrifice is alleged to be...it is
RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, I gave a wonderful class last time on the necessity of sacrifice!
Planetshpr: ::shrugging at Graz::... HE made it circumstantial!
YusefNouri: Jesus endured incredible responsibility and anguish
REBKADVD81: perhaps Jesus is not just one person...perhaps a group of saviours to bring forth a higher conscious
DECLIGHT: such a wonderful idea...if ever sacrifice really becomes nec...let me know...I'll move to another planet
DCizunas: Chess, I would rather pass over than try to grub out a life on this earth plane
Planetshpr: Chess... see whether I took a "fair" share... I took a share. What is FAIR?
Planetshpr: a judgment.
VoicesInTheWindd: no Gala
YusefNouri: the weight o Jesus' shoulders must have been hard to bear
RBCF 3000: REBKADVD, actually, you are probably right, since the
RBCF 3000: same story is repeated throughout 20,000 years of history
RBCF 3000: and mythology.
REBKADVD81: well the true sacrifice is lifting something up...into higher consciousness
RBCF 3000: REBKADVD, sure is-- have to sacrifice limited concepts and ego-stuff, right?
YusefNouri: Jesus was in human form after all
DECLIGHT: the truth is that sacrifice not only isn't nec...it is impossible
REBKADVD81: RBCF...yes i am thinkn we don't know the half of is
Planetshpr: (well... that, too, DEC!!! LOL!)
DECLIGHT: sacrifice is an abstract value added to acts...nothing more
Galaxon: voice here it comes
FoxesTruth: all is choice my friend
VoicesInTheWindd: all is what I see
Galaxon: Voice well....i can understand that clearly. i know just what that feels like
DECLIGHT: to believe in sacrifice is to adore fear and deny life
RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, in a certain way, you are right, but to get there
RBCF 3000: don't we have to sacrifice limitation?
REBKADVD81: Rbcf.....surely would delightfully help
DECLIGHT: no 3000...there is no sacrifice involved
Grazhopprr: nothing is sacrificed, it is brought into completeness of expression
RBCF 3000: REBKADVD, you have a feeling of many years of spiritual
RBCF 3000: practice-- what has your path been?
DECLIGHT: well said Graz
YusefNouri: words are just words....the real proof comes under fire...on the battle field
YusefNouri: of life
REBKADVD81: RBCF...clearing out rocks ...he ...no just had wonderful grandfather
DECLIGHT: all things are proven in all situations, battlefields notwithstanding
Grazhopprr: belief in the battle validates itself
REBKADVD81: rbfc..don't follow tribal conceptual thinking
DCizunas: Well, time for me to say goodnight...catch ya later..thanks for chat
Grazhopprr: there is a christian (again) practice that applies, the giving up of yourself to the christ
Grazhopprr: that is you
YusefNouri: for example...that is what made Hemingway so exciting to read..he lived like he wrote
Planetshpr: beautiful, Graz...
DECLIGHT: Graz...never heard that in Christian teachings...if so, a very nonmainstream group
DECLIGHT: good point though
Grazhopprr: that's all it take, no games
RBCF 3000: Ok, friends, I'm off to bed-- you all gave wonderful
RBCF 3000: contributions! I'll be back here for the Mind/Body/ Spirit
RBCF 3000: chat on Thursday night, and next Monday, the subject here
RBCF 3000: will be "How the ideas of modern physics relate to what we
RBCF 3000: are endeavoring to accomplish". Please email me if you'd
RBCF 3000: like the newsletter with the schedule.