Ecstatic Awareness #8 -- Faith vs. Beliefs, and Spiritual Power


PowerChat:  *** Entered The New Age on 1/17/00 at 07:28 PM ***

RBCF 3000: Good evening, dear friends

RBCF 3000: We'll be starting class in a minute. It will be the 8th session of "Ecstatic Awareness"

Log Count:  There were 12 member(s) in The New Age at 07:30 PM

RBCF Heart:       Tonight's is the eighth class in the series, on the

RBCF Heart:       theme of "How is Faith different from beliefs, and how

RBCF Heart:       is it related to Spiritual Power?"

RBCF 3000: Once we get started, we'll be on "informal protocol"

RBCF 3000: which just means you let me finish an idea and then

RBCF 3000: watch for me to open the floor for discussion, ok?

RBCF 3000: Ok, so we can start, we ask that you take greetings

RBCF 3000: and private conversation into IMs, and we have a

RBCF 3000: wowser of a theme tonight!


RBCF 3000: Welcome, everyone. Tonight is our eighth class in

RBCF 3000: Ecstatic Awareness: "How is Faith different from

RBCF 3000: beliefs, and how is it related to Spiritual Power?" Once

RBCF 3000: again, for those who are joining us for the first time,

RBCF 3000: the way we are using the word "ecstatic" here means

RBCF 3000: entering into states of consciousness, accompanied by

RBCF 3000: transformation of being, in which the supernatural

RBCF 3000: and the Miraculous can be witnessed and experienced

RBCF 3000: directly, even including the realms of Divinity.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: Before we begin tonight's lesson, let's hear if any of

RBCF 3000: you are trying some of the exercises we've been

RBCF 3000: discussing. These include stopping the internal

RBCF 3000: dialogue; listening, tasting and feeling on deep levels;

RBCF 3000: dream and trance work; and infinitely prolonged

RBCF 3000: meditation.  Go right ahead if you've been trying any

RBCF 3000: of these ...

RochelleDo:       meditation is incredible for becoming more awae

RochelleDo:       and the stillness we do not normally allow

RochelleDo:       ourselves

RBCF 3000: RochelleDo, did you find it awfully tedious when you first

RBCF 3000: started meditation?  I sure did

SparrowOvQ:       its stops all internal dialogue and hits every level of your being

Saeve88:    I cannot shut my mind off

Saeve88:    I find it hard to meditate

Saeve88:    to shut external off

Saeve88:    any advice?

RochelleDo:       I would have if I had done it earlier in my life

RochelleDo:       I knew now was the time

RochelleDo:       it will be ages before it is as special as it

RochelleDo:       might be maybe but the stillness i did so require

Raquelwel: 3000 - When I meditate I get so relaxed that I fall asleep?

FlowerJJN: keep saying 'I am slowing Down My Internal Dialogue' Saeve .. it works

Saeve88:    I want to get in touch with my guides

Saeve88:    and i have ahard time doing it

Saeve88:    I have yet for them to get in touch with me

Saeve88:    I am struggling with this

SparrowOvQ:       or say Saeve 4000 times nothing else

FlowerJJN: they will get in touch with you ..

Selph2000: Sae..instead of stopping it...try stepping out

DECLIGHT:   it is not necessary to shut down internal dialogue

Raquelwel: Flower - I have asked them to get in touch with me, but nothing so far

DCizunas:   Raquel, did you ever stop to think that this is what your guides think is the best thing...

DCizunas:   ...many things are also seen in a dream state

RochelleDo:       It is a cumulative thing, meditation...must be

RochelleDo:       persevered with

FlowerJJN: No need to ask .... when they think it is ready they will come ..

RBCF 3000: Saeve, I don't even *try* to "shut my mind off" -- that

RBCF 3000: doesn't really work, does it?  I do it by going toward an

RBCF 3000: inner focus-- hard to describe, but it emerges.

Saeve88:    okay

RochelleDo:       just allow, accept

Raquelwel: DC - I wish I could remember anything afterwards tho

DCizunas:   Saeve, greetings...greetings all

RochelleDo:       its all alright and acceptable

SparrowOvQ:       Graz what do you do to turn off ?

DCizunas:   Ah Raquel, just put out the thought that you wish to remember...

Saeve88:    I find it very frustrating

Saeve88:    to try

Saeve88:    I teach school all day

Raquelwel: DC - I've done that too

RochelleDo:       Saeve, do not have expectations

Saeve88:    and I am so wired at night

DCizunas:   ...I have also had success asked to be roused from meditation at a certain time

Saeve88:    I canot relax

Saeve88:    to meditate

RochelleDo:       just allow what happens and accept it

Saeve88:    i am trying very hard to do it

Saeve88:    but nothing is happening

RochelleDo:       do not try so hard

RBCF 3000: Saeve, I was taught to do my meditation first thing in the

RBCF 3000: morning, before *everything*!

SparrowOvQ:       that the trouble saeve trying

Grazhopprr:       meditation tapes i make for myself work better for me than loose gemini mind

FlowerJJN: Saeve .. my mind was always going ... what I told you works .. after a while you will not

Saeve88:    and i feel I have gifts to find

FlowerJJN: have to say it ..

RochelleDo:       yes

SparrowOvQ:       Graz thats a good idea

DCizunas:   Raquel, just be assured that it will come in time, nothing is easy at first

Selph2000: Saeve..what do you find relaxing?

Saeve88:    music

Saeve88:    quiet places

Saeve88:    lying down

SEEKNGSTUD:       I have no desire to "turn off" my thoughts!  <--not a zombie wannabe

Raquelwel: DC - I suspect so, just be patient

RBCF 3000: Anyway, we all have to struggle with these exercises,

RBCF 3000: because they go against our habits.  And that is the very

RBCF 3000: point-- it is our habit NOT to notice the Miraculous!

Grazhopprr:       very comfortable music with your voice is a good way to start

RochelleDo:       just dont "expect" from meditation or you defeat

RochelleDo:       the purpose

FlowerJJN: that is meditation also ... Saeve ... does not have to be formal

Saeve88:    okay

RBCF 3000: SEEKNGSTUD, then this might possibly not be the right class for you at this time, eh?

RBCF Heart:       Tonight's is the eighth class in the series, on the

RBCF Heart:       theme of "How is Faith different from beliefs, and how

RBCF Heart:       is it related to Spiritual Power?"

Raquelwel: Rochelle - I'm sure expecting doesn't help

Selph2000: listening to music and all that you named can be practice as mediation

AsianLotus:       I think faith is a manifestation of the spirit, beliefs are what we are taught

Suzy0111:   I learned mine

DCizunas:   Raquel...kinda like being pregnant and waiting for it to happen...LOL!!

SEEKNGSTUD:       Faith & beliefs are imagined spiritual "power" for the weak minded

RBCF 3000: Ok, let's move along. This class is not on meditational

RBCF 3000: practices primarily.  So please hold comments once again

RBCF 3000: for the next idea.  I appreciate your forbearance

RBCF 3000: Ok, once again PROTOCOL please, for a minute ........................................

RBCF 3000: First of all, what does faith have to do with achieving

RBCF 3000: ecstatic states of awareness? Maybe nothing, if we just

RBCF 3000: simply mean by it some general religious feelings or

RBCF 3000: beliefs, or a special degree of trust. But in the lineages

RBCF 3000: that I follow, faith has nothing to do with believing

RBCF 3000: anything, nor with the borrowed highs from

RBCF 3000: charismatic experiences.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: This Faith that I am describing is the core of being

Rebspirit1:       Heart...belief is often part of a system...whereas, faith is based upon inner belief

RBCF 3000: that we each have at our very center, the Rock which

RBCF 3000: never wavers, but which we have covered over with

RBCF 3000: concerns, compromises, considerations, and "getting

RBCF 3000: along", which I believe really means making our

RBCF 3000: spirituality a lower priority than survival maintenance.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: Observation and tradition show that we rarely ever get

RBCF 3000: to this core until we have undergone major

RBCF 3000: transformation and, even then, it rarely lasts unless we

RBCF 3000: are kept in an environment which supports that

RBCF 3000: change, like various ashrams in India, or Tibetan

RBCF 3000: temples or tribal villages way off in the jungle.

RBCF 3000: .

Log Count:  There were 17 member(s) in The New Age at 07:45 PM

RBCF 3000: The degree of change required for this kind of

RBCF 3000: transformation may occur by accident, as in near-

RBCF 3000: death experiences (NDEs), surviving a lightning bolt

RBCF 3000: or a crash or other sudden accidents, or prolonged

RBCF 3000: intense situations like torture, being held captive at

RBCF 3000: gunpoint, or facing imminent death; sometimes the

RBCF 3000: change occurs from a extended illness or painful injury.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: The other main set of circumstances which cause the

RBCF 3000: accidental (non-intentional) movement of faith, are a

RBCF 3000: whole range of what our society refers to as "mental or

RBCF 3000: emotional illness," autism or psychosis. In other

RBCF 3000: societies, such people have often been put into service

RBCF 3000: as oracles, seers, artists and performers, not having

RBCF 3000: many of the limitations that well-adjusted, normal

RBCF 3000: people have.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: I should make a bit of a distinction here-- I haven't

RBCF 3000: found that people that we classify as neurotic or

RBCF 3000: maladjusted generally make the kinds of shifts we are

RBCF 3000: looking for here. The shift takes something fairly

RBCF 3000: extreme to "kick over" enough for our other side to

RBCF 3000: show itself-- a quantum jump.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: For that reason, when the impetus is accidental or

RBCF 3000: external, the result is far more often the degeneration

RBCF 3000: or disintegration of the ego. It is only in rare instances

RBCF 3000: of these cases that the ordinary ego is replaced with a

RBCF 3000: knowing essence, something which transcends the

RBCF 3000: ordeals.

RBCF 3000: **** Do any of you know people with unusual abilities

RBCF 3000: like this, or have undergone these kinds of ordeals

RBCF 3000: yourself?  Go right ahead with comments -- open floor

RBCF 3000: now .....

Rebspirit1:       3000...surpass the nuances of the environment and hold on to one's center

Rebspirit1:       well-adjusted?

AsianLotus:       Faith is a knowing that your beliefs are well founded

AsianLotus:       Faith is a knowing that you can do anything and giving yourself the power to

Rebspirit1:       Asian...but, cud we use belief in lieu of faith in that sentence? And how wud it change meaning

SparrowOvQ:       one thing though Faith without action behind it does not move the mustard seed or mountain

AsianLotus:       I think in a way it's synonymous

Rebspirit1: that is what makes for a spiritual who can

Suzy0111:   I can do it

FlowerJJN: are you saying that ordinary people .. cannot transcend 3000 ??

AsianLotus:       No

Grazhopprr:       average humans are too busy living and surviving to think about it

SparrowOvQ:       I do not believe that in every case there need be a personal life tragedy to attain

SparrowOvQ:       but then thats just my belief

DECLIGHT:   methods come and go...the simple reality they are about stays

RBCF 3000: FlowerJJN, I am saying that we ourselves have to

RBCF 3000: *become* non-0rdinary to transcend. Makes sense?

DECLIGHT:   simplicity is the simpler path, obviously

Rebspirit1:       3000..there were quite a few gross generalizations in that rhetoric?

DCizunas:   Before that callus of responsibility takes over, we all have those abilities

DECLIGHT:   to meditate is merely to look at yourself to discover yourself

RBCF 3000: Grazhopprr, exactly-- what does it take to "get busy" with transcendence?

FlowerJJN: okay .... :) 3000  because most that do transcend .. with humility .. seem ordinary ..

SEEKNGSTUD:       so if I understand you right.. psychotic people are the "faithful" and the faith can only be

SEEKNGSTUD:       practiced in an ashram or away from the real world?

Simmarah:   Define Non Ordinary?

RBCF 3000: Rebspirit, yes, good observation

ClaritySS: Flower,  I  think what he is saying is that something very dramatic has to happen in one's life

Grazhopprr:       3k, the convincing of the human ego to undergo the necessary methods with follow thru

Rebspirit1:       3000...there are those who travel and find faith or belief

Simmarah:   I have lived about ten yrs altogether in Yoga Ashrams

RBCF 3000: FlowerJJN, right-- often deliberately, to blend in, for several reasons, I've noticed.

SparrowOvQ:       that is stories so often heard again I do not buy that it has to occur to attain

ClaritySS: for it to make us have the faith to manifest these experiences.. Flower.

DECLIGHT:   instead of thinking your beliefs about yourself are true

Rebspirit1:       3000...some read books and find what others must suffer to learn

DCizunas:   Seeky, you can get away from it all anyplace you happen to be...state of mind

LucidDreamweaver:       Sometimes it takes one to fall flat on their back to be able to look upward

Rebspirit1:       3000..there is no unique pattern to growth of a soul...I think

FlowerJJN: Yes ... Clarity ... I gathered that's what he meant and I disagree

SparrowOvQ:       Why not then if you want great spiritualness, faith and powers just take a hot branding iron

SparrowOvQ:       or poker and fizz away

RBCF 3000: SEEKNGSTUD, only "psychotic" in a certain metaphorical

RBCF 3000: respect, and it really does help to begin away from

RBCF 3000: ordinary circumstances, and then come back into life and

RBCF 3000: work on it there.

Grazhopprr:       sparrow, some have done that, lol

Simmarah:   Sparrow  in some sense that is a good analogy

Simmarah:   Testing the fire

RBCF 3000: Rebspirit, you are right-- each path is unique. And yet,

RBCF 3000: there are similar things that are done along each path,

RBCF 3000: don't you agree?

SEEKNGSTUD:       sounds like escaping to me!  And I prefer being well adjusted and not psychotic!

Grazhopprr:       the "ego" needs to be convinced that there is another side to existance before experience

Grazhopprr:       retains

DECLIGHT:   soul is the infinite mechanism of needs no learning...but we foist that upon it

Grazhopprr:       remembering dreams needs ego's support to remember

ClaritySS: Flower, I  agree with you on disagreeing with him, but then again, sometimes a kick in the ...

ClaritySS: butt is what we need to wake up to realize our power, flower!

Simmarah:   GRAZ   so you are saying ego has to be tricked?

DCizunas:   Seek, I prefer not to be adjusted by anyone or anything, I'd rather be me

Kirstenese:       agree, Graz, and needs to trust that other side too

RBCF 3000: SEEKNGSTUD, how are you doing with your "well-adjusted" program? 

Grazhopprr:       simm, not tricked, convinced of the reality of the experience

Simmarah:   GRAZ but reality is relevant to situation only

FlowerJJN: I am not sure that is necessary Clarity :):) but it happens at times

Grazhopprr:       2 realities can be understood

RBCF 3000: Simmarah, I'd say that the ego always has to be tricked. It

RBCF 3000: would never ever ever ever go for everything it's going to

RBCF 3000: be put through!

ClaritySS: Yes , God knows, I have got butt kicked a few times, Flower!

SEEKNGSTUD:       I am doing quite well so long as I recognize when someone else tries to manipulate my mind !

Simmarah:   I believe ultimately ego has to be dissolved

Simmarah:   though mine is fighting that  LOL

FlowerJJN: Ego .. is the essence of who we are ....

Grazhopprr:       i am here, but i am there also, can be understood by human mind/ego, thus retention

DivaofFire:       Studley, we are all manipulated...

RBCF 3000: SEEKNGSTUD, I just wonder why this class fascinates you

RBCF 3000: then, enough for you to sit through time after time...?

DivaofFire:       3K.. maybe cause he is your favorite student??  <G>

ClaritySS: I totally agree with you , but do we always remember this, Flower, in the time of the ....

Planetshpr:       I disagree Flower.  To me, ego is the package of fear, old programs, issues and illusion we

Grazhopprr:       simm, ego can't be dissolved, it is you here or in spirit.  it just needs to be convinced

ClaritySS: experience?

Planetshpr:       used to believe was us.

Planetshpr:       it is not the TRUE us, imho.

RBCF 3000: Simmarah, it makes sense, doesn't it, that there has to be a

RBCF 3000: place to stand outside of that which is undergoing the

RBCF 3000: ordeal, right?

FlowerJJN: That is also who we are Planet :) no disagreement there ..

RBCF Heart:       please keep greets to Ims

Simmarah:   GRAZ   part of Yogi Bhajan's teaching state neccesity to let go of ego

Simmarah:   which I agree with

Simmarah:   IS FAITH a "system"?

SEEKNGSTUD:       it helps me recognise BS from reality...

DECLIGHT:   how interesting that we sit here and agree and disagree as though that were important

Grazhopprr:       simm, no prob, heh.  we go our own ways in the end.

RBCF 3000: Simmarah, I regard Faith as a great gift, and find that I can

RBCF 3000: describe some sort of "system" for realizing Faith in

RBCF 3000: practice.

SparrowOvQ:       and Yogi Berra says " how can you hit the ball and plan on it at the same time

FlowerJJN: It is not really important, DECLight  ... as long as we accept what others believe .. I think

ClaritySS: don't you think it is important, Declight?

AsianLotus:       Dec I don't think this is an open forum,  have to wait

Simmarah:   3000   I would say that it only makes "sense" fro ma "rational " view point


RBCF 3000: SparrowOvQ, quantum physics asks the same question-- we'll be looking at that next week

DECLIGHT:   I do not accept what others believe...merely their right to believe it

Simmarah:   DEC Exactly!!

FlowerJJN: Thats what I meant DECLIGHT :)

Simmarah:   agree

AsianLotus:       True Dec

DANZ649:    Dec, true enough.

Grazhopprr:       sometimes it's good not to believe in anything.  just allow what happens.

AsianLotus:       Right on Graz

Planetshpr:       thanks, Graz... right on point...

DECLIGHT:   but even though they have the right to believe whatever, does not make it okay for them

DoveOP:     drat, something wrong with that key

RBCF 3000: Simmarah, maybe it would be fair to say that those who

RBCF 3000: have the gift of Faith go through these motions as a

RBCF 3000: gesture...? 

Simmarah:   Actually I believe in a lot of things others do  Just not in same way or same Order

Planetshpr:       not my business, Dec.

FlowerJJN: But who are we to decide that DECLIGHT ??

DECLIGHT:   the deeper the entrenchment in widely unaligned thought, the less beneficial

Planetshpr:       whether what someone believes works for them, is not for me to say.

ClaritySS: Declight...I think it can be important , I mean what each of us beliefs will affect the ...

DANZ649:    when something "just happens", you have a choice to believe or change it.

Planetshpr:       ... unless ...  <grinning> they ask me.

DECLIGHT:   it is anyone's business if they care to make it so

Simmarah:   3000  I see Faith as applied consciousness  The Action of doing your "beliefs"

ClaritySS: universal energy, Declight

RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, how is your Faith doing right now?

Planetshpr:       <smiling broadly>... most excellent 3K!

DoveOP:     manifest destiny, self fulfilling prophesy

Kirstenese:       I agree, Clarity, good point.

Grazhopprr:       belief can be a good start, if following others steps.  but you end up in your own path

AsianLotus:       3000, I have faith and belief in ONE thing,  myself

Planetshpr:       to live as I do, 3K, one MUST have faith.

Log Count:  There were 22 member(s) in The New Age at 08:00 PM

Planetshpr:       or go down in flames.

DANZ649:    lol, Planet.

RBCF 3000: Simmarah, maybe then we should say that there are

RBCF 3000: several levels of faith, in which a preliminary level would

RBCF 3000: be doing the practices faithfully, eh?

DECLIGHT:   the single object of meditation is far beyond any energy

Kirstenese:       the colective/mass consciousness

RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, that's what I say, and sometimes I see no way

RBCF 3000: to "live as I do" another minute!

Simmarah:   3000  I would say that that is the only real level IMO in this form/body

ClaritySS: Does anybody know what 'mass events ' means?

Grazhopprr:       ask a woman if they believe in only one hairstyle

Planetshpr:       ^5 3K! LOL!

JacobJG:    FAith is mostly what we'

JacobJG:    faith is mostly what we're inculcated with growing up

JacobJG:    it's what so many stick with just to be good children

RBCF 3000: <-- bumps hips and does a jig with Planet

Planetshpr:       hmmm...  well.. there is faith, Jacob... then there is BLIND faith... lol!

AsianLotus:       Right on Planet

RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, does it seem like "blind faith" is really even *faith*???

ClaritySS: We are all here together and yet, all kinds of subjects are being discussed, if we were ...

JacobJG:    isn't all faith reasonless?

JacobJG:    so then blind faith IS the same

Planetshpr:       3K... are we polishing an act to take on the road here? roflmao! 

ClaritySS: if we were sharing the same subject, we would be sharing realities as well.

DECLIGHT:   faith is what you are

Planetshpr:       No, 3K... blind faith is actually unexamined belief sets.

Simmarah:   3000   ?? Absolute Faith ??  Does it need "eyes" ??

Simmarah:   <grin>

DECLIGHT:   looking at yourself will reveal this

AsianLotus:       Right DEC

Grazhopprr:       blind faith in anothers steps is what this lifetime might be, for some, no judgements

DECLIGHT:   and the confidence in the reality of YOU...becomes your evidence of faith

DECLIGHT:   (or things not seen)

DCizunas:   Sounds to me like the definition being given is that faith is gut instinct...

DCizunas:   ...and belief is adhering to a set of preexisting tenets

RBCF 3000: Simmarah, I find that it somehow has its very own "eyes"

DANZ649:    blind faith is what we are told and we"blindly"follow it.

Simmarah:   3000   :o )

Planetshpr:       not a judgment, Graz...  some operate on beliefs they never actually examine.  just IS.

Kirstenese:       faith= believing but not seeing

DECLIGHT:   faith has nothing whatsoever to do with believing

SEEKNGSTUD:       faith is what one tries when they DON'T know

Grazhopprr:       which is what they need at that time.  openness to ideas follow eventually.

DoveOP:     and if the belief is strong enough, the see follows

RBCF 3000: Kirstenese, does it make sense that we have to give up our

RBCF 3000: limited "seeing" in order to replace it with seeing in more

RBCF 3000: dimensions?

RBCF 3000: SEEKNGSTUD, good way to put it

DANZ649:    I have learned not to "believe" everything I am told, it must be examined, as Planet said.

Freethinker40:    beliefs are who we are....having faith in those beliefs is the spirtual

DCizunas:   Me too Danz

LucidDreamweaver:       Very well put Free

Kirstenese:       3000 I believe that at first we need to give up our "seeing" and play , sort of speak,

Kirstenese:       with the imagination.

DANZ649:    applauding Free.

RBCF 3000: Freethinker, somehow I think it's just the opposite. How

RBCF 3000: could *beliefs* be "who we are"???  Beliefs are words-- are

RBCF 3000: we born with words?

Grazhopprr:       belief is how this physical universe is formed, agreed upon.  lifting mind above that

Grazhopprr:       agreement is learning to not believe

DECLIGHT:   Kirstenese.....good call

Freethinker40:    not so.......3000

AsianLotus:       We are born with knowledge and the understanding of words

RBCF 3000: Kirstenese, right, although I've gotten lost in imagination, myself, a time or two

Freethinker40:    we are what we believe we are to be

DoveOP:     why is a belief not a thought? 3000.... or a dream even

RBCF 3000: Freethinker, please go on ...

Freethinker40:    we create reality through our beliefs

SEEKNGSTUD:       Free..nope..we are what we are... then we make up a theory about it

LucidDreamweaver:       Yes

RBCF 3000: Freethinker, I completely agree, but does that make us who we are???

Kirstenese:       :)  3000, I understand

Grazhopprr:       "not agreeing" with this physical dimensions agreement got me in trouble once, lol

DECLIGHT:   a belief IS a thought...and erroneous illusion thought...unreal thought

Planetshpr:       how's that, Graz?

Freethinker40:    your beliefs create who you are

DECLIGHT:   faith is the single real thought...and YOU are IT

Planetshpr:       we don't KNOW that beliefs are erroneous or illusionary, Dec...

RBCF 3000: Grazhopprr, me, lots more than once-- getting tired of community service

DECLIGHT:   Planet...perhaps...but it is there for you to find out if you wish

Grazhopprr:       planet, i built a mantra for conscious use in the daytime.  driving a truck isn't good for

SEEKNGSTUD:       Free.. you are ..first..then you come up with a belief about it

DCizunas:   But Free, by giving up those beliefs can lead us to greater dimensions

Grazhopprr:       leaving the body

Planetshpr:       LOL! Graz!  OUCH!

Freethinker40:    yes......dc


Grazhopprr:       scared the phtttttt outa me, rofl

Planetshpr:       Agreed, DEC, absolutely.

DCizunas:   Graz, tell me what road you're on so I won't be there...LOL!!

DECLIGHT:   and positutely

Grazhopprr:       don't do that no mo

Planetshpr:       zip-zap, one minute you're out, one minute yer back in yer body?  WOW!

RBCF 3000: Grazhopprr, why should it be a risk, if the "truck-driving"

RBCF 3000: "reality" disappears, replaced by wherever we go next?

Planetshpr:       ahhh, the challenge of the New Age, 3K... navigating between consensus reality and ... um...

Planetshpr:       the higher plane?

Grazhopprr:       well, i felt a bit responsible for the truck going 40 miles an hour in rush hour traffic, lo

Planetshpr:       one foot on each.

RBCF 3000: For example, THIS reality is where I went when I disappeared the last one, I think ...

Planetshpr:       WOW!  good'un, 3K!  YES!

Grazhopprr:       news flash, empty box truck carreens into traffic, major back up on i-5

Planetshpr:       Film at 11, eh Graz?

DCizunas:   Foxes brought up something the other night that I've been thinking of...maybe someone...

Freethinker40:    change a belief and you change your perciption of reality

DCizunas:   ...steps in during times we are away to carry on our everyday life

RBCF 3000: Freethinker, exactly true, I believe.

Freethinker40:    this is how physical reality works

Grazhopprr:       heh,,,,body double

RBCF 3000: DCizunas, it's always ourselves, I find

RBCF 3000: Ok, let's continue tonight's class, dear friends. Please hold

RBCF 3000: comments a minute while I roll this next turkey out :)

RBCF 3000: ...........................................

RBCF 3000: Ok, we have talked about unintentional or

RBCF 3000: serendipitous shifts into the hidden side of ourselves.

RBCF 3000: Now let's take a look at traditions (or lineages) which

RBCF 3000: deliberately induce extreme shifts, not only over an

RBCF 3000: extended period of time, but with a focus and intensity

RBCF 3000: designed to crack the shell of normalcy and security.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: The Eastern traditions tend to be life-long, integrative

RBCF 3000: disciplines, as depicted in the old Kung-Fu TV series (at

RBCF 3000: least, I like to think so), combining daily practices of

RBCF 3000: meditation, service, martial arts, knowledge studies

RBCF 3000: and special challenges, like walking on rice-paper

RBCF 3000: without leaving a footprint, or handling red-hot

RBCF 3000: hardware.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: Aside from physical challenges, the intellect may be

RBCF 3000: overwhelmed with Zen koans ("What is the sound of

RBCF 3000: one hand clapping?") or Taoist conundrums, and the

RBCF 3000: emotions will be challenged with moral dilemmas--

RBCF 3000: who shall live and who shall die, when to temper

RBCF 3000: justice with mercy, when a lie is more true than the

RBCF 3000: truth ("where the truth lies"), and so on.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: Those are the preliminary exercises. As we get deeper

RBCF 3000: into these paths, our very soul is tested. This is what is

RBCF 3000: depicted in so many ways in scripture and mythology.

RBCF 3000: On the one side, we are tempted with wealth and glory

RBCF 3000: and gratification, usually at someone else's expense,

RBCF 3000: and on the other side we are left helpless, friendless,

RBCF 3000: shunned and despised, with no respite in sight.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: What we usually don't realize is that it is the very

RBCF 3000: futility of finding the "treasure at the end of the

RBCF 3000: rainbow" (since a rainbow is an infinite circle) which

RBCF 3000: leads us into the "underworld" of our own

RBCF 3000: subconscious, and it is there that we find the real

RBCF 3000: treasures. The risk is almost always stated as death,

RBCF 3000: madness, or becoming trapped and enslaved by

RBCF 3000: monsters like the cyclops, the Gorgon or dragons.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: The way I have come to understand these metaphors

RBCF 3000: is that these are not risks, but *certainties* which we

RBCF 3000: will encounter on this journey. We will go through

RBCF 3000: madness as our limited ego enocunters the Abyss; we

RBCF 3000: will be (and we already are!) trapped by "monsters"--

RBCF 3000: the fixations of our self-deceit, delusions,

RBCF 3000: "righteousness," indoctrinations and, most insidious of

RBCF 3000: all, the decisions we started making when we were

RBCF 3000: infants reacting to a rather harsh world totally beyond

RBCF 3000: our comprehension.

RBCF 3000: .

Log Count:  There were 21 member(s) in The New Age at 08:15 PM

RBCF 3000: We consider these infantile decisions to be our

RBCF 3000: "nature." We say, "That's just who I am," whenever

RBCF 3000: someone tries to point our insanity out to us.  That is

RBCF 3000: why we die when we finally come to that terrible and

RBCF 3000: loathesome place in ourselves where all our old ideas

RBCF 3000: of self collapse.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: When people are tested at this level, it is very common

RBCF 3000: to undergo psychotic break, and often commit suicide.

RBCF 3000: Or they may go on a berserk rampage, or put together

RBCF 3000: a cult whose principles may sound very nice and

RBCF 3000: spiritual, but end up in seige with the FBI, or in a

RBCF 3000: cataclysm of mass self-destruction.

RBCF 3000: ****** Are these notions completely absurd, or do they

RBCF 3000: start to make sense out of a senseless world?  Open

RBCF 3000: floor now, please go right ahead ...

Lorinaz:    soul steps out of the body while the body sleeps

Grazhopprr:       sounds like me, lo

Planetshpr:       that is what is promised if we DO NOT go into our underworld, 3K....  in any event.

Planetshpr:       COUNT on breakdown, disease, the hell of a belief system that no longer operates in reality.

Chesster67:       why would the self want to destroy self-realisation self annihilation?

RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, doesn't it seem like we can volunteer to

RBCF 3000: embrace the Dark, or be dragged into it anyway?

Planetshpr:       What we resist, persists, 3K.  What we embrace, gives grace.

Planetshpr:       (copyright!)

AsianLotus:       I don't think it would Chess

RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, yer a poet, n you showit

Planetshpr:       lol!

Grazhopprr:       don't look down

Chesster67:       asian, then why suicide?

DECLIGHT:   the self is presently getting what it wants...but thinks it doesn't want

AsianLotus:       Karma

Planetshpr:       that is a personal truth from the very journey you describe.

DCizunas:   That thought train seems to reflect current times...gone is the perfect family of the 50's..

AsianLotus:       A choice to leave the physical plane

DECLIGHT:   down the seeming road/path a bit, as the self aligns itself and stabilizes,

Chesster67:       asian, do you  believe in self0hatred?

DECLIGHT:   it will seem much better

DCizunas:   ...we all must make our own way

Freethinker40:    agreed ........dec

RBCF 3000: Chesster, that's the very point-- the ego-self ("lower self") is

RBCF 3000: going to do everything it can NOT to!

AsianLotus:       Not really

Drifting Current:       the self knows what it needs

AsianLotus:       I believe in a lack of self love

Chesster67:       RBCF, i don't understand what you mean

Chesster67:       asian, not hate?

RBCF 3000: DecLight, just takes a bit o' patience, eh?

Grazhopprr:       self-hatred is a reality to some

AsianLotus:       No hate is really hurt

DECLIGHT:   despite our seeming trapped in lower actually does not exist

Drifting Current:       patience indeed

Chesster67:       graz, i believe we all suffer from it

DECLIGHT:   that is why meditation becomes necessary, to release us from that bond

Chesster67:       dec, what do you mean??

Planetshpr:       most definitely, self-hatred, self-judgment exists.  I believe it to be the underlying sourc

RBCF 3000: Chesster, what I mean by what, please?

Planetshpr:       e of all disease.

AsianLotus:       Sometimes we are trapped in pure pain

DECLIGHT:   which is the BELIEF in our ego, etc.

Planetshpr:       it is always illusion... but presents the lessons of the soul.

Drifting Current:       meditation is great stuff to practice

DCizunas:   So true Planet

Chesster67:       RBCF, our lower self will doeverything it cannto do?

Freethinker40:    night all

DANZ649:    Asian, you have a choice to not be trapped.

Drifting Current:       night Free

AsianLotus:       Right Dan

DECLIGHT:   meditation when one understands it correctly, is what we are...not something we do

AsianLotus:       I agree DEC

Chesster67:       dec, who are we?

AsianLotus:       We are he and I and many others

Drifting Current:       yesm Declight, something we are

RBCF 3000: Chesster, nope-- our lower ego is the resistance-- it's up to

RBCF 3000: High Self (that's where all the Faith is) to trick and trap the

RBCF 3000: lower self into making the changes.

DECLIGHT:   the entire point of spiritual endeavor is to release that erroneous view of self

DCizunas:   Dec, kinda like returning home after we've been away

Chesster67:       RBCF, how can we trick ourselves?

DECLIGHT: a sense, yes

Drifting Current:       ego is good tricker

DECLIGHT:   of like awaking from a dream

RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, right-- and yet it is not the erroneous-view that releases itself, eh?

DECLIGHT:   only to go back to bed so we can dream some more LOL

Grazhopprr:       tricking the lower self only ticks it off, lol.  waste of time in the end

DANZ649:    coyote medicine.

DCizunas:   Good analogy Dec

RBCF 3000: Chesster, do you have a cat or a dog? How do you clip its claws or give it medicine, etc.?

Drifting Current:       maybe bed, maybe a sitting

DECLIGHT:   3000...the erroneous view can do nothing...but attention on the reality of self can

DECLIGHT:   it can completely reverse thought and undo error

RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, wonderful-- you have anticipated my next comments, coming up in a minute.

DECLIGHT:   as attention to what is real presents understanding that replaces beliefs

Planetshpr:       there ARE tricks, 3K... but... are they really tricks?

Grazhopprr:       ego is logical, convincing the mind works better

RBCF 3000: Grazhopprr, unless ego gets its treats for having gone thru

RBCF 3000: it, like we do for our pets, right?

SparrowOvQ:       you all do realize that normal busy people for the most part do not concern themselves with

SparrowOvQ:       thse things right?

SparrowOvQ:       lol

Chesster67:       RBCF, cannot the "lower self" change by itself?

Planetshpr:       "normal busy people"  --- roflmAAAAAAiooooo!!!

Grazhopprr:       3k, results work better than trinkets

AsianLotus:       Right Sparrow

DANZ649:    what's normal??????

RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, "tricks" is a metaphor-- could be described as a "gesture" or a dance.

SparrowOvQ:       it was a trick question

AsianLotus:       Dan?

Planetshpr:       "normal busy people" come to me cause their lives aren't WORKING!

AsianLotus:       What's real?


Planetshpr:       ... a dance, 3K... I like that.

RBCF 3000: Chesster, it will never happen-- the lower self is cast in

Chesster67:       asian, all that exists

RBCF 3000: concrete very early, never really changes.

AsianLotus:       For whom Chess

Drifting Current:       there are always ways to manipulate words and

Drifting Current:       meanings

Chesster67:       RBCF, so we are two people?

DANZ649:    dancing is movement of energy.

AsianLotus:       My reality would not always match others'

Chesster67:       asian, for existence itself

DANZ649:    shift, shift.

Planetshpr:       nicely put, Danz!

DECLIGHT: what's real....YOU R


RBCF 3000: DANZ, "normal" means not deviating. Necessary to deviate

RBCF 3000: quite a bit to achieve the Miraculous.

Chesster67:       asian, true

Grazhopprr:       3k, i can see you know nothing about respect for self if you must trick it for results

AsianLotus:       :-)

RBCF 3000: Chesster, 100's or 1,000's ! 

Planetshpr:       Graz...  self?  or Self?

SparrowOvQ:       I will take my abbynormal self off here now

DECLIGHT:   oh yes it would Asian

Grazhopprr:       either or

DANZ649:    I know 3K

AsianLotus:       3000,  aren't we going around and around with beliefs and of what importance is it?

RBCF 3000: Grazhopprr, mighty charitable of you, to go into judgment of me personally... NOT!

Planetshpr:       another time, Sparrow....

Grazhopprr:       easy enuf with what you have said, quite

DECLIGHT:   oh are fun to judge

RBCF 3000: AsianLotus, this all has to be done metaphorically-- it is

RBCF 3000: really adding up to something, count on it

DECLIGHT:   don't spoil all our fun

AsianLotus:       Ok,  I am new at this

RBCF 3000: Now we come to our exciting conclusion for this

RBCF 3000: evening's class -- please hold comments while I roll

RBCF 3000: out the final section .................................................

Planetshpr:       you guys are kidding, right?  you don't KNOW that all judgment is, in the end, SELF judgment?

DANZ649:    sometimes takes awhile to get to the heart of the matter, Asian

DECLIGHT:   the only real judgment is reality itself

RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, I do believe you are right about that

DECLIGHT:   what is is....simple

Grazhopprr:       it is a poor child that has parents that trick them into things instead of teaching them

Grazhopprr:       with love

Chesster67:       amen dec

RBCF 3000: (It's ok with me if we don't come to consensus on these

RBCF 3000: notions right now-- we're going around something to find

RBCF 3000: out what it is

RBCF 3000: Ok, final section of the class--

RBCF 3000: ............................................................

RBCF 3000: Why would anyone choose to undergo the collapse of

RBCF 3000: ego, and how could one possibly trust someone or

RBCF 3000: some method willing and able to accomplish such a

RBCF 3000: thing? Aha!  Now I have a reason to bring faith back

RBCF 3000: in, after seeming to stray far away from it.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: Maybe the only real way to describe this level of faith

RBCF 3000: is like when you awaken in the morning after a string

RBCF 3000: of nightmares. All night your feet have been stuck in

RBCF 3000: tar, your mother didn't know you, and you were

RBCF 3000: totally helpless to prevent all kinds of mayhem.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: But here are the gentle rays of warmth enticing you to

RBCF 3000: try another day in the light; here are the sweet songs

RBCF 3000: of bluebirds and chickadees. The sky is blue, and you

RBCF 3000: can smell your favorite breakfast cooking in the

RBCF 3000: kitchen.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: You start writing down your dreams, and you realize

RBCF 3000: that there wasn't really anything horrible in them;

RBCF 3000: everything that happened was just exactly what it took

RBCF 3000: for you to get a particular point, and you even feel

RBCF 3000: happy and grateful for having received such gifts. You

RBCF 3000: find yourself looking forward to your life, whatever

RBCF 3000: your day brings you. :)

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: What I have just described is not faith, though-- this is

RBCF 3000: the *result* of faith. Faith is what got us through that

RBCF 3000: dark night. It is not something we did, because we

RBCF 3000: were helpless and entirely ignorant of what could or

RBCF 3000: should be done. It is apparently not anything we could

RBCF 3000: have "deserved," because we were abominably wicked

RBCF 3000: and selfish in our nightmares.

RBCF 3000: .

Log Count:  There were 14 member(s) in The New Age at 08:30 PM

RBCF 3000: The original Latin meaning of faith was "to trust," but

RBCF 3000: in our nightmares we lost trust over and over again.

RBCF 3000: So the closest meaning I can think of would be loyalty

RBCF 3000: because, in spite of all our fear and cynicism and self-

RBCF 3000: justification and delusion, something held us together

RBCF 3000: long enough to wake up on this fine, sunny morning

RBCF 3000: of the soul.

RBCF 3000: .

RBCF 3000: I promise you that, if you stay with us on this

RBCF 3000: extraordinary journey, you will meet the author of this

RBCF 3000: unaccountable faith, and your life will be changed

RBCF 3000: forever.

RBCF 3000: ****** Well, friends, those are the ideas that I'd like

RBCF 3000: you to think about for yourselves.  Now let's hear your

RBCF 3000: questions and comments. 

Drifting Current:       maybe ego really is something wicked worth

Drifting Current:       going beyond

Chesster67:       RBCF, so the christians would say

DECLIGHT:   faith is its own result

Drifting Current:       that is alot

Drifting Current:       maybe ego is worth going beyond

Drifting Current:       we are all on a path of our own device

Planetshpr:       3K, faith and trust are a choice.

Planetshpr:       made regardless (some times in SPITE of) circumstances.

RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, yes, and *making* that choice every moment takes what kind of energy?

Planetshpr:       from the toes up, 3K.

Chesster67:       RBCF, are you a christian?

RBCF 3000: Chesster, I call myself a mystical Christian.

Drifting Current:       what we choose to recognize may benefit us

Planetshpr:       everything I have.

AsianLotus:       3000,  I have been in metaphysics for 27 yrs and never had the opportunity to hear this

Planetshpr:       over and over, every moment.

AsianLotus:       thank you for sharing

RBCF 3000: AsianLotus, thanks, and doesn't it make sense with what you have learned?

Grazhopprr:       will power

Chesster67:       RBCF, would you consider yourself a Buddhist?

RBCF 3000: Chesster, yes, I am a Buddhist

Drifting Current:       there are many who see nothing of a path

Drifting Current:       one minute it might change and many are

Drifting Current:       instrumental in the change

RBCF 3000: Drifting Current, many what?

Planetshpr:       3K, I have a dear friend, a man of enormous commitment to this process who says,

Planetshpr:       if he had known what it would take when he started 22 years ago,

Planetshpr:       he would have just eaten a bullet!

DCizunas:   I can go along with that Plant!!

Drifting Current:       if any of us know, we share what we know maybe

Planetshpr:       I knew him 22 years ago...  the path was WORTH it.

Chesster67:       RBCF, do you believe Jesus' death on the cross atones for our sins?

RBCF Heart:       commitment takes great courage

RBCF 3000: Planetshpr, I agree-- I thought when I decided against

RBCF 3000: suicide 40 years ago, that the worst of it was over

Planetshpr:       roflmao 3K!!!!!!

RBCF 3000: Chesster, I have no idea what any of that means-- please explain...

DECLIGHT:   well now, the shedding of blood for remission...I can relate to that

DECLIGHT:   and not in the traditional Christian way either

DANZ649:    I am grateful for the path I have taken, lessons learned were hard, and recurring, but very

DANZ649:    well worth the journey.

Chesster67:       RBCF, do you believe that Jesus gave his life on the cross for the sins of humanity?

RBCF 3000: DANZ, good, because there's lots more coming!

Chesster67:       dec, in what way?

DECLIGHT:   yes DANZ....we can all be grateful for our lives, each as wonderful as the others

FoxesTruth:       Chesster.......I think that is

FoxesTruth:       propoganda........sorry to say.....meaning no disrespect

AsianLotus:       Well night all,  thanks for the insights

Galaxon:    Chester nope...i sure don't

RBCF 3000: Chesster, no, I don't *believe* any of those words, because

RBCF 3000: they don't have meaning for me.

Chesster67:       Foxes, can one be a christian without believing it though?

DECLIGHT:   Chess....the belief in blood as the source of life must be shed

DECLIGHT:   in order to see the truth of spirit as the source of life

Drifting Current:       goodnight all I have to go

DECLIGHT:   which vision is faith

Chesster67:       RBCF, does Jesus's death mean anything to you?

Galaxon:    chester  Can one worship okra without eating it?

FoxesTruth:       Chesster........probably not......I think

FoxesTruth:       Christians are simply defined by believing that

FoxesTruth:       Jesus Christ is their Saviour

DCizunas:   Chesster...who sins??  All are children of "god" and children do make mistakes

RBCF 3000: Chesster, His eternal Presence is all that means anything to me!

Chesster67:       Dec, could you please rephrase that?

Galaxon:    Jesus died and came back to demonstrate that death is an illusion

Chesster67:       foxes, saviour in what way?

RBCF 3000: Galaxon, good point!

DCizunas:   ITA Galax

Planetshpr:       nice work if you can get it, Galaxon!

DECLIGHT:   Chess....I think it was phrased fine

Chesster67:       DC, we all sin

Kirstenese:       I agree with that Gal

DANZ649:    (reincarnation) Galaxon?!

Alisnntrnt:       Gala, did okra wrong you in this life or another?

Galaxon:    Plan hmm. not me

FoxesTruth:       Once I realized that God was

FoxesTruth:       sense of inner peace became truth beyond any

FoxesTruth:       other truth I have ever known...and is still

FoxesTruth:       revealing itself

Galaxon:    Dan well....reincarnation exists but that was not the thrust of it....

Chesster67:       dec, are you talking to hear yourself?

DCizunas:   Chess...I make mistakes and know of no one who sins

RBCF 3000: DCizunas, right-- that's why I define "sin" as "a moment of

RBCF 3000: forgetting" till I remember again

Planetshpr:       but indeed, that IS one of the lessons of the Christed One's story.

Chesster67:       what must we shed?

DANZ649:    well said. thanks.

Planetshpr:       that the body is an illusion.

Chesster67:       DC, what do you mean by "sin"?

DECLIGHT:   sounds so naturally perfect Foxes

DECLIGHT:   actually no Chess

Chesster67:       RB, why do we forget?

RBCF 3000: Chesster, please be patient with us-- we all do that

DCizunas:   Chess...what do YOU mean by sin??

Galaxon:    sin is merely when a thought about a thing is in error

RBCF 3000: Chesster, quantum differences of spiritual energy, I figure

FoxesTruth: is to me

Chesster67:       DC, i mean doing what we know is wrong

DECLIGHT:   nothing wrong with believing in Jesus...just realize it is only a belief

DECLIGHT:   and that Jesus did not teach that he was all that

DCizunas:   Chess, kinda like children trying something they shouldn't??

FoxesTruth:       agreed Declight

So so Rus: faith and belief huh

RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, what do you call it when we experience the Presence of Jesus?

Chesster67:       dec, i found your statement about the source of life intriguing

Chesster67:       i did not understand it though

DCizunas:   Oh yes, Dec

Chesster67:       DC, we all do wrong

Galaxon:    I have gotten the presents of Jesus...i took

Galaxon:    them back to walmart and got  the money for

Galaxon:    them

So so Rus: in the spiritual relm one cannot exist without the other

Planetshpr:       define "wrong" Chesster?

FoxesTruth:       Jesus taught that all humans have the powers of

FoxesTruth:       the Source........which are ultimately

FoxesTruth:       omnipotent, omnipresent, and

FoxesTruth:       omniscient..........we are only bound by our beliefs......

DCizunas:   True Chess, we make mistakes as any child who is learning will do and we learn from them

Chesster67:       planet, i will not define know what wrong is

Planetshpr:       know, Chess, I do not.  I gave up "duality"... 

Chesster67:       Foxes, where did Jesus teach that?

DECLIGHT: can call experiencing the presence of Jesus...or what they believe to be that...

DECLIGHT:   anything they wish

RBCF 3000: FoxesTruth, that's what I've been going by-- do you have the chapter/verse ref's btw?

Planetshpr:       I no longer live in right/wrong.

Planetshpr:       I live in what IS.

Galaxon:    Jesus said with faith all things are possible...that is limitless

RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, I knew you'd say that, and of course you are right.

FoxesTruth:       no I don't RBCF..........would that validate it

FoxesTruth:       better??

DECLIGHT:   3000....been there, done that...and spirit led me to a better understanding of it

Chesster67:       Planet, selfishness, apathy towards others, greed, hate...this is wrong

DECLIGHT:   are you another one of those tricksters 3000 LOL

RBCF 3000: FoxesTruth, not at all, but it gives me something to do in arguments on street corners

DCizunas:   Galax, I like the saying "I asked "god" why"  Reply was why not?

Planetshpr:       no, Chess, those things are not "wrong"... they are just judgments.

FoxesTruth:       Planet......agreed.....that is lower mind....

Chesster67:       planet, and should we not judge such?

Planetshpr:       what IS selfish? 

Galaxon:    Dc the why was from the thoughts

Grazhopprr:       there is no wrong anymore than a lion killing a zebra is wrong

Planetshpr:       Judge not, Chess, lest ye be judged.

FoxesTruth: what book would there be a

FoxesTruth:       reference do you think???

DECLIGHT:   << does not have a lower mind

Chesster67:       planet, do you know what greed is?

DECLIGHT:   << also does not have a higher mind

DCizunas:   So true Galax

Planetshpr:       greed is a judgment, Chess. 

Galaxon:    Judge not lest ye be type cast on People's Court

Chesster67:       planet, and not real?

YusefNouri:       when you examine what Christians believe quite closely...its actually very beautiful

FoxesTruth:       LOL that only for egoists??

RBCF 3000: FoxesTruth, I'll bring up my Bible CD-ROM, maybe it's cross-refed.

DCizunas:   Galax, LOL!!

DECLIGHT:   frankly, I think we've forgotten what a mind is for

Chesster67:       Yuse, amen

YusefNouri:       as long as they don't start acting negative

Planetshpr:       no, Chess.... NOT real.  How MUCH constitutes greed?

DECLIGHT:   probably Foxes....our private hell

FoxesTruth:       3000/..........I wouldn't know....never read the

FoxesTruth:       bible.......

Chesster67:       planet, just the slightest bit

RBCF 3000: YusefNouri, some of it is, anyway-- not the "moral" stuff, for my tastes.

Planetshpr:       If I feel I need $5 million a year, is that greed?

FoxesTruth:       Declight.....LOLOL

Chesster67:       planet, how much of what?

Planetshpr:       What if my corporation supports hundreds of employees with that $5 million?

DECLIGHT:   no Planet...just untrue

FoxesTruth:       3000......I channel my information hon..........

Chesster67:       planet, if you need

Chesster67:       of course not planet

Planetshpr:       still greed?

YusefNouri:       I understand RBCF

RBCF 3000: FoxesTruth, I just swiped a Gideon from the hotel room-- it's actually fascinating.

DCizunas:   Foxes, try reading it's got the same things as other scripture

Planetshpr:       see, Chesster... just a judgment.

Planetshpr:       a circumstantial judgment, at that.

Chesster67:       planet, may i give you an example of greed?

DECLIGHT:   Yuse...I have examined what Christians believe very very closely

FoxesTruth:       DC.....oh I tried when I was a Christian.........

Chesster67:       may i?

DECLIGHT:   and it's not beautiful at all

Planetshpr:       sure, Chess, go for it.  I do not enroll in duality.

DANZ649:    IMHO, God gave us brains, we are to decide how to use them.

RBCF 3000: Chesster, just try not to make a mess with it

FoxesTruth:       so is this chat on Christianity?

DECLIGHT:   which is one of the two main reasons I do not call myself Christian anymore

DCizunas:   LOL Foxes...sometimes it reads better from a more neutral point of view

DECLIGHT:   Foxes....could be LOL

Chesster67:       planet, let us pretend that you are stuck on an island with...your father......

YusefNouri:       I can only say what my experience has been

FoxesTruth:       oh boy

Log Count:  There were 20 member(s) in The New Age at 08:45 PM

RBCF 3000: FoxesTruth, it's on the inner meaning of "faith", so I guess

RBCF 3000: we have to deal with christianity, right?

FoxesTruth:       3000........oh no.......that's not true

Chesster67:       there is food enough for the two of you to live for a while....

RBCF 3000: Next week: The connection between the principles of

RBCF 3000: modern physics and the mystery of Existence. Please

RBCF 3000: continue whatever daily practices you are doing-- we'll

RBCF 3000: be using everything that results from them.

Chesster67:       you decide to beat your father up and eat the food for yourselfl leaving him to suffer...

Chesster67:       and to die....

Lorinaz:    3K Thank you so much for sharing your  love and ideas

Chesster67:       that is greed, no?

RBCF 3000: All the previous logues are downloadable from

RBCF 3000: keyword "New Age", Library II, if you missed any of

RBCF 3000: the previous classes, and tonight's logue (#8) will be

RBCF 3000: available within the next week.

YusefNouri:       Christianity isn't that much of a threat....drugs, alcohol, porno...etc...that's the stuff

YusefNouri:       that destroys lives

DECLIGHT:   actually, Jesus is about getting us to realize the truth and thereby save ourselves

DECLIGHT:   in that context, he brought salvation

Grazhopprr:       tosses mags into bag

Planetshpr:       no, I did not forget, Chesster.

DECLIGHT:   but certainly was not alone in bringing it

Planetshpr:       I killed my father to eat his food... that about the size of it?

Alisnntrnt:       DEC, that could describe many paths

RBCF 3000: Chesster, but it sounds like Jesus is some father-figure to

RBCF 3000: come and take care of us wretched sinners.  To me, Jesus

RBCF 3000: the Christ is way way way more than that.

Galaxon:    the term "saviour" only means someone who shows you that yhou are living in an illusion

Chesster67:       RBCF, in what way?

Planetshpr:       I don't see greed in that example, Chesster.

FoxesTruth: that you Yogi?

Chesster67:       planet, what do you see?

Planetshpr:       were you going to add something to make it greed?

Planetshpr:       <grinning>

Grazhopprr:       saviour validates the need to be saved, it's an agreement

FoxesTruth:       saviour also means teacher

Galaxon:    foxees that is waht a saviour teaches

VoicesInTheWindd:       not always so Grazz

RBCF 3000: Chesster, He is for sure the Way and the Truth and the

RBCF 3000: Light, but that doesn't make Him separate from me,

RBCF 3000: because He reveals His Path as the same one that leads

RBCF 3000: right back up to God.

Chesster67:       planet, you took more than your fair share, neglecting that well being of your father..

Chesster67:       evil selfishness

Planetshpr:       Chesster, I see 2 people on an island sharing resources to the extent they did.

DCizunas:   I can't imagine the kind of feelings you have Chess, love All my fellow men, not just relation...

VoicesInTheWindd:       but usually yes

Galaxon:    foxes me what?

Chesster67:       DC? excuse me?

Galaxon:    foxes will an energy hug work?

FoxesTruth:       sure thing

Planetshpr:       "fair" is a judgment, Chesster...  My father knew I was pregnant with twins...  He ALSO knew

VoicesInTheWindd:       it will I will

FoxesTruth:       Voices..........aaahhhhhhhh I thought so

Planetshpr:       he was dying of a terminal disease.

Galaxon:    fox ok...from the feet up

Chesster67:       planet, is everything just judgments?

Planetshpr:       he sacrificed himself that my children might live.

Galaxon:    Voice so what will?

Planetshpr:       absolutely, Chesster.

DECLIGHT:   sacrifice is contraindicated...and the idea that Jesus sacrificed is nonsense

Grazhopprr:       don't remember the pregnant part

DECLIGHT:   if you merely look even casually at what that so-called sacrifice is alleged to is

RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, I gave a wonderful class last time on the necessity of sacrifice!

Planetshpr:       ::shrugging at Graz::... HE made it circumstantial!

YusefNouri:       Jesus endured incredible responsibility and anguish

REBKADVD81:       perhaps Jesus is not just one person...perhaps a group of saviours to bring forth a higher conscious

DECLIGHT:   such a wonderful idea...if ever sacrifice really becomes nec...let me know...I'll move to another planet

DCizunas:   Chess, I would rather pass over than try to grub out a life on this earth plane

Planetshpr:       Chess... see whether I took a "fair" share...  I took a share.  What is FAIR?

Planetshpr:       a judgment.

VoicesInTheWindd:       no Gala

YusefNouri:       the weight o Jesus' shoulders must have been hard to bear

RBCF 3000: REBKADVD, actually, you are probably right, since the

RBCF 3000: same story is repeated throughout 20,000 years of history

RBCF 3000: and mythology.

REBKADVD81:       well the true sacrifice is lifting something up...into higher consciousness

RBCF 3000: REBKADVD, sure is-- have to sacrifice limited concepts and ego-stuff, right?

VoicesInTheWindd:       okay

YusefNouri:       Jesus was in human form after all

DECLIGHT:   the truth is that sacrifice not only isn't is impossible

REBKADVD81:       RBCF...yes i am thinkn we don't know the half of is

Planetshpr:       (well... that, too, DEC!!! LOL!)

DECLIGHT:   sacrifice is an abstract value added to acts...nothing more

Galaxon:    voice here it comes

FoxesTruth:       all is choice my friend

VoicesInTheWindd:       all is what I see

Galaxon:    Voice well....i can understand that clearly. i know just what that feels like

DECLIGHT:   to believe in sacrifice is to adore fear and deny life

RBCF 3000: DECLIGHT, in a certain way, you are right, but to get there

RBCF 3000: don't we have to sacrifice limitation?

Grazhopprr:       <sigh>

REBKADVD81:       Rbcf.....surely would delightfully help

DECLIGHT:   no 3000...there is no sacrifice involved

Grazhopprr:       nothing is sacrificed, it is brought into completeness of expression

RBCF 3000: REBKADVD, you have a feeling of many years of spiritual

RBCF 3000: practice-- what has your path been?

DECLIGHT:   well said Graz

YusefNouri:       words are just words....the real proof comes under fire...on the battle field

YusefNouri:       of life

REBKADVD81:       RBCF...clearing out rocks ...he just had wonderful grandfather

DECLIGHT:   all things are proven in all situations, battlefields notwithstanding

Grazhopprr:       belief in the battle validates itself

REBKADVD81:       rbfc..don't follow tribal conceptual thinking

DCizunas:   Well, time for me to say goodnight...catch ya later..thanks for chat

Grazhopprr:       there is a christian (again) practice that applies, the giving up of yourself to the christ

Grazhopprr:       that is you

YusefNouri:       for example...that is what made Hemingway so exciting to read..he lived like he wrote

Planetshpr:       beautiful, Graz...

Planetshpr:       yes. 

DECLIGHT:   Graz...never heard that in Christian teachings...if so, a very nonmainstream group

DECLIGHT:   good point though

Grazhopprr:       that's all it take, no games

RBCF 3000: Ok, friends, I'm off to bed-- you all gave wonderful

RBCF 3000: contributions!  I'll be back here for the Mind/Body/ Spirit

RBCF 3000: chat on Thursday night, and next Monday, the subject here

RBCF 3000: will be "How the ideas of modern physics relate to what we

RBCF 3000: are endeavoring to accomplish".  Please email me if you'd

RBCF 3000: like the newsletter with the schedule.